# Game of Thrones 8.04 "The Last of the Starks" 5/5/2019 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 5, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524 "2019-05-05T20:44:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/461 "2019-05-09T01:41:11Z")
The scorpion isn’t actually a ballista, because it lacks a torsion spring. It’s more similar to a [gastraphetes or oxybeles](https://slate.com/culture/2019/05/game-of-thrones-greyjoy-superweapon-scorpion-ballista-gastraphetes.html). For discussion of this, and more dick metaphors than you can shake a stick at, see the linked article. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/462 "2019-05-09T02:55:57Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Sam Stone, your elaborate, well thought out suggestion is as good an indication as any that it would be impossible to please all kinds of Thrones fans in this short a time. Your scenario sounds great for people who love zombie movies and TWD episodes focused on mass zombie-fighting. I prefer the “Thrones” that primarily involves people talking in rooms. So I wish they had cut that “Long Night” battle down to just half the length, then included the coda we saw in Winterfell to begin this episode as the end of that episode, and then this past episode would have had more time to develop other storylines. Well, it wasn’t particularly well thought out. I was basically thinking it as fast as I could type it. The point is that a room full of writers should have been able to come up with a satisfying conclusion given 8.5 hours of screen time in which to tell it. It didn’t have to be my version, but it could have been a lot better. > [@](#): > > Even if we set aside all the issues with pacing and major plot developments, it’s irritating for them to be so contemptuously heedless of established canon regarding a major setting of the show in all eight seasons. Totally agree. And it’s something they could have written around, especially after the battle of the Army of the Dead. All they have to do is allude to months passing, since they now have all the time in the world with the Army of the Dead gone. However, if Cersei is pregnant that doesn’t work. Speaking of that… just how much time HAS passed? Cersei was supposedly pregnant before her first meeting with Tyrion. Since then, Tyrion has gone north to Winterfell, prepared for and fought a huge battle, then traveled all the way south again to King’s landing, and Cersei isn’t even showing yet? That’s a round trip of something like 5,000 miles, isn’t it? Even in the current show they established that Jon’s army wouldn’t arrive for a fortnight after Daeneris had already arrived back at Dragonstone. So I am assuming that at least 3 months would have had to pass, even by the show’s insanely optimistic travel times. In terms of the lack of water around king’s landing, can we fanwank that it’s been very dry and the water has receded? ---
**Author:** ![gupwalla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@gupwalla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gupwalla)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/463 "2019-05-09T03:05:51Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Sure, but the whole premise of bringing up the annulment is to make Jon be the legitimate heir to the throne. If the grounds were shaky, his position as the heir could be challenged. Yes, and by that logic Lord Regent Eddard Stark capably administered the realm for a period of weeks while finalizing his case that Robert had no legitimate children, therefore the throne peacefully passed to Stannis Baratheon as the rightful heir. In the show as in history, legal arguments are much better suited to justifying wars between rival claimants than actually governing the line of succession. At the end of the day the bigger army equals the better legal argument. Narratively, it would be the suckiest of all imaginable endings if the winner of the Game of Thrones is decided by genealogists and lawyers. It would be like ending Henry V midway through the second scene based on the Archbishop’s exhaustive evisceration of agnatic succession, even before we get to the “balls” joke. The narrative impact of R+L=J is that it creates a rival claim where none had existed before. It was supposed to be this harmonious revelation that made for a maximally happy ending, but instead there is this insidiousness at the heart of it that is driving a wedge between Dany and Jon. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/464 "2019-05-09T03:07:39Z")
Is Arya’s direwolf still running around somewhere? Will she join Arya and the Hound as they become murderers for hire? Maybe that’s a planned GoT spinoff. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/465 "2019-05-09T03:18:47Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Maybe the grounds were shaky, and instead of Dany trying to blast Jon with dragonfire in the next episode we’ll see her bring a case in religious court to have the annulment made invalid and him back to being a bastard again. A happier ending for everyone!😃 As far as anyone knows, Jon Snow is still technically a bastard they declared King of the North. And the North only tolerates Daenerys as “Queen”, mostly on Jon’s recommendation. > [@gupwalla](#): > > Narratively, it would be the suckiest of all imaginable endings if the winner of the Game of Thrones is decided by genealogists and lawyers. I don’t think that will happen. Cercei established pretty early on in the show that “pieces of paper” didn’t really mean anything and that “power is power”. That’s what’s so annoying about the last episode. Forget cutting off Missandei’s head. That was a tactically bad decision anyway, as she could have just held her hostage in the Red Keep to spite Dany. Why not just rain arrows down on them or send some cavalry to cut them down? Cercei is the daughter of the guy who architected the Red Wedding after all. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus\_alba](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quercus_alba/32/4061_2.png) [@Quercus\_alba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus_alba)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/466 "2019-05-09T03:42:32Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Is Arya’s direwolf still running around somewhere? > > Will she join Arya and the Hound as they become murderers for hire? Maybe that’s a planned GoT spinoff. This one looks good… 🙂 [https://www.facebook.com/omegalevel/photos/a.381372346278/10156404275726279/?type=3&eid=ARDThbmeP1yTyfyPd9uZKtcT-WnX1UGUiahBgnmZFMJWM-29YdI-7uSmsy7P4ZUvE8qfJvCHYa\_coE-k& **xts** %5B0%5D=68.ARAy6tDYSnFj3B2Kk\_KGuPMjTkVIN-42Ws9wtGso3RuOB\_Qh5D4apmYYeeao72zMrvLwPzLqrn43Qr1u5SkKYcawOSJz4k68ge5XzA7xQqeFeD4paN23PVyByju2YmxnqxnoZuR0OiZ-5BL-CtidIaowwDeAqPxHpaMiG4\_K1QdGjhpCcSU8GAdZK3mNE8QZ-O96Pb-pPrYUIBGP9NCEMdArqu\_Pokhwl3cin-6KhDR5D\_UT4EhXyfCgyI7OB51omlR\_t67GmHbO7uooythgNVJ3UlZd\_NgZXU-Ketru009\_04QhyKRGcZhqnOIwf\_-uRC8a1\_a58Pmo8Q& **tn** =EHH-R](https://www.facebook.com/omegalevel/photos/a.381372346278/10156404275726279/?type=3&eid=ARDThbmeP1yTyfyPd9uZKtcT-WnX1UGUiahBgnmZFMJWM-29YdI-7uSmsy7P4ZUvE8qfJvCHYa_coE-k& __xts__ %5B0%5D=68.ARAy6tDYSnFj3B2Kk_KGuPMjTkVIN-42Ws9wtGso3RuOB_Qh5D4apmYYeeao72zMrvLwPzLqrn43Qr1u5SkKYcawOSJz4k68ge5XzA7xQqeFeD4paN23PVyByju2YmxnqxnoZuR0OiZ-5BL-CtidIaowwDeAqPxHpaMiG4_K1QdGjhpCcSU8GAdZK3mNE8QZ-O96Pb-pPrYUIBGP9NCEMdArqu_Pokhwl3cin-6KhDR5D_UT4EhXyfCgyI7OB51omlR_t67GmHbO7uooythgNVJ3UlZd_NgZXU-Ketru009_04QhyKRGcZhqnOIwf_-uRC8a1_a58Pmo8Q& __tn__ =EHH-R) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/467 "2019-05-09T04:03:37Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Is Arya’s direwolf still running around somewhere?.. Yes. From early last season: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90Q-MUj47hg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90Q-MUj47hg) ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/468 "2019-05-09T04:07:13Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > As far as anyone knows, Jon Snow is still technically a bastard they declared King of the North. And the North only tolerates Daenerys as “Queen”, mostly on Jon’s recommendation. > > I don’t think that will happen. Cercei established pretty early on in the show that “pieces of paper” didn’t really mean anything and that “power is power”. > > That’s what’s so annoying about the last episode. Forget cutting off Missandei’s head. That was a tactically bad decision anyway, as she could have just held her hostage in the Red Keep to spite Dany. Why not just rain arrows down on them or send some cavalry to cut them down? Cercei is the daughter of the guy who architected the Red Wedding after all. Lets just assume they were out of range guys. As for calvary…you saw that dragon behind them yes? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/469 "2019-05-09T07:21:46Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > That is correct. I never had HBO in the past. I didn’t watch any episodes until 3 or 4 weeks ago (or whenever it was. Maybe 2 weeks, I can’t remember) Were you aware of the famous plot points, like Ned Stark death, the red wedding, etc…? ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/470 "2019-05-09T08:38:45Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > also it seemed like a desert near Kings landing when the dragon burned up the Tarly father and other son. I think that was on the long road between Highgarden and Kings Landing, nowhere near KL in itself. ---
**Author:** ![Oswald\_Bastable](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oswald_bastable/32/214_2.png) [@Oswald\_Bastable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oswald_Bastable)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/471 "2019-05-09T09:46:14Z")
I think we can assume that the outside KL scenes take place at one of the land gates to the city, so no reason why we should see the sea. However, previous opening shots of KL (and other scenes in the surrounds without the walls) have made the surrounding lands look mostly wooded. I’m happy to fanwank that they’ve cleared the woods immediately around the city for resources and also to remove cover from approaching enemies. I think we should still have been able to see a few stumps and the remaining trees on the horizon however… Considering this is the capital, you’d think they’d have a more impressive road leading up to it too, but maybe this is the tradesman’s entrance. OB ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/472 "2019-05-09T10:49:43Z")
Wooded and mountainous ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/473 "2019-05-09T14:15:46Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > …If Westeros is anything like premodern Europe then if Rhaegar was cheating it was because Lyanna was betrothed to another man, not because he was married to another woman… Young Robert Baratheon was smitten with Lyanna Stark but they weren’t betrothed, IIRC. I don’t think she was betrothed to anyone when she caught Rhaegar’s eye. > [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Lets just assume they were out of range guys. As for [cavalry]…you saw that dragon behind them yes? A dragon within ballista range if he came much closer to the walls. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/474 "2019-05-09T14:19:24Z")
> [@Oswald\_Bastable](#): > > I think we can assume that the outside KL scenes take place at one of the land gates to the city, so no reason why we should see the sea. However, previous opening shots of KL (and other scenes in the surrounds without the walls) have made the surrounding lands look mostly wooded. I’m happy to fanwank that they’ve cleared the woods immediately around the city for resources and also to remove cover from approaching enemies. I think we should still have been able to see a few stumps and the remaining trees on the horizon however… Considering this is the capital, you’d think they’d have a more impressive road leading up to it too, but maybe this is the tradesman’s entrance. > > OB All of which is kind of missing the point. The fact that so many of us had the reaction of “hey, wait, what, that’s what it looks like” is proof that it’s bad filmmaking. Whether or not it’s technically-plausible-with-what-we’ve-seen-before is irrelevant, it’s the job of the show to make places and landmarks familiar to us to give us a sense of place and continuity. They failed to do so here. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/475 "2019-05-09T14:34:45Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > A dragon within ballista range if he came much closer to the walls. Based on Rhaegal’s death scene, Drogon was easily within scorpion range during the parlay scene. I think we were supposed to just assume that of course the main party was standing out of range, and that’s why Tyrion went forward from there. But if we’re assuming the main party is actually out of range, they’d also be out of earshot so they wouldn’t have heard Missandei say, “Dracarys!” I’m happy to fanwank away a bunch of stuff due to it being difficult to actually convey some of these things in an economic fashion, but between the weird landscape and the whole if they’re close enough to hear Missandei they’re close enough for Cersei to pincushion them and being Cersei if she could pincushion them she would thing I just found the whole scene rather jarring. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/476 "2019-05-09T15:03:02Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > … if they’re close enough to hear Missandei they’re close enough for Cersei to pincushion them and being Cersei if she could pincushion them she would thing I just found the whole scene rather jarring. Tyrion hit the mark there: She only cared about her kids. Her kids are dead, now she cares about nothing. _Maybe_ the unborn nugget in her womb, if there’s actually anything in there, but maybe not. Cersei doesn’t care about being queen at this point. All she’s interested in is wreaking as much destruction as she can upon the world that took her kids from her. Winning the war by pincushioning her enemies outside the keep is the opposite of victory for her. She _wants_ the dragon to melt the keep (and bonus points for sparking a green nuclear fireball in the process). You wanna fuck with Cersei, you’re going to have to give up everything to get to her. Which is fine. King’s Landing is a rat’s nest of corruption, a repository of horrific memory (remember how Bran is the repository of mankind’s memory, and to kill him would be to truly kill mankind), and the hub of the wheel Dany ostensibly wants to break. It’s a boil that needs to be lanced, and Cersei the core that perpetuates the infection. Root and stem. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/477 "2019-05-09T15:07:47Z")
I think we’re supposed to suspend our disbelief there and assume Dany and co are well out of range, but they just showed them closer because it packs a more emotional punch for Dany and Grey Worm to _watch_ Missandei die than to hear about it from Tyrion shortly afterwards. Dramatic license, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/478 "2019-05-09T15:10:46Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Euron isn’t a delicious villain. He’s a clown and a buffoon. His successes make no sense given his erratic decision making and lack of substantial resources of his own. I haven’t liked Euron since the moment he stepped on screen. He’s a cartoon, and his magical ability to summon massive fleets from nowhere and appear wherever the real characters need to be in danger is just totally out of sync with the rest of the story. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/479 "2019-05-09T16:03:32Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I haven’t liked Euron since the moment he stepped on screen. He’s a cartoon, and his magical ability to summon massive fleets from nowhere and appear wherever the real characters need to be in danger is just totally out of sync with the rest of the story. Totally agree. ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/480 "2019-05-09T16:10:28Z")
I was just struck by a thought, which I will freely admit may be greatly motivated by my shock at seeing Rhaegal die so unexpectedly: at the beginning of this episode, there was some mention of how the Red God hasn’t given any signs of approval or performed any miracles after the people at Winterfell fought his war against the dead. Well, what if Rhaegal actually gets resurrected by the Red God (or, heck, the Drowned God for that matter) as a miracle meant to aid the living in their further battles? So you could have Jon Snow, brought back from the dead, riding his dragon, also brought back from the dead. Mind, Beric Dondarrion and Jon Snow weren’t just brought back, they were resurrected by someone performing magical rites on them, and I don’t know that anyone is anywhere around Rhaegal, let alone a person who knows enough magic to be useful there. Just a thought! What do you think, am I just completely off base? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524.md?page=25)