# Game of Thrones 8.04 "The Last of the Starks" 5/5/2019 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 5, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524 "2019-05-05T20:44:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/501 "2019-05-09T18:16:10Z")
> [@Quercus\_alba](#): > > It was not referring to a single person, I believe, but to the group of them that gathered–Arya, Bran, and Sansa (and they believed, Jon, until he blabbed). _Collectively_, the last remaining Starks. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Nitpick but Jon is still one of the last of the Starks. He’s just not one of Ned Stark’s children. I wonder if the title is a semi-spoiler regarding that these are the last group of people to carry on the Stark name. So Bran won’t have kids (neither will Arya I’d imagine), Jon will embrace his Targaryen last name, and if Sansa marries and has children the children will have a different House name. No more Starks to carry on the name. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/502 "2019-05-09T18:29:38Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > I wonder if the title is a semi-spoiler regarding that these are the last group of people to carry on the Stark name. So Bran won’t have kids (neither will Arya I’d imagine), Jon will embrace his Targaryen last name, and if Sansa marries and has children the children will have a different House name. No more Starks to carry on the name. … I’m gonna violate the no book rule here mods because … ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/503 "2019-05-09T18:37:07Z")
> [@HammerJoe](#): > > Can we all agree that the story is unfolding for a Danys victory in KL, wiping out Euron ( well maybe Yara will be the one killing him in a ship battle?) and Cersei and becoming the queen and she does something that will lead someone to kill her afterwards? If I had to bet $20 on it either way I’d bet Daenerys dies. However, I think it’ll be before she blows up half of King’'s Landing. > [@](#): > > In the process The Hound fights the Mountain (does the outcome really matter?) > Arya going to KL, is obviously to kill Cersei, theres no other point of her storyline. I dont see her being the one killing Danny. She doesnt have reason to, unless John is killed by Danny?? This is possible but would be disappointing. If Arya kills both the top villains, it’ll just feel like they ran out of ideas. So many people are turning against Daenerys that it’s hard to imagine how she’s going to pull a clean win on this one. Varys has all but bought a T-shirt saying I’M GOING TO BETRAY DAENERYS, everyone who knows Jon is Aegon VI is getting ready to flip, and she’s being driven into an irrational rage of the sort that could turn her last allies against her. Tyrion will not abide the slaughter of civilians, and that could even turn Jon against her. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus\_alba](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quercus_alba/32/4061_2.png) [@Quercus\_alba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus_alba)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/504 "2019-05-09T18:40:44Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Is Arya’s direwolf still running around somewhere? > > Will she join Arya and the Hound as they become murderers for hire? Maybe that’s a planned GoT spinoff. Someone thinks so… > **[The Tense Friendship Between Arya Stark and the Hound Reimagined as a 1980s...](https://laughingsquid.com/arya-and-the-hound-1980s-tv-sitcom/?fbclid=IwAR37w94_gXkdSJFfPww2Pj2PYnoKBIleA2b485yz0EwrtDCn1bkORKZB_Kk)** > > Filmmaker Lance Krall of Picture It Productions quite cleverly reimagined the rather precarious and quite unlikely friendship between Arya Stark (Maisie ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/505 "2019-05-09T19:17:08Z")
> [@Oswald\_Bastable](#): > > Considering this is the capital, you’d think they’d have a more impressive road leading up to it too, but maybe this is the tradesman’s entrance. The halfman always rings twice. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/506 "2019-05-09T19:21:39Z")
Cersei’s not stepping foot outside the Red Keep during battle, so the Mountain’s not stepping foot outside, either. If we’re to have Cleganebowl, the Hound has to get inside. So there has to be a battle where Daenerys sacks the city (killing multitudes) or the Hound has to slip in somehow. He’s traveling with Arya, who knows a secret way in. So he slips in that way and tries to find his brother. Since the Mountain is at Cersei’s side, Arya and the Hound sneak through the hallways together until the Hound realizes that Arya isn’t with him, anymore. (Optional: A blade slides into his heart, and he says, “Your list?” Arya responds, “It’s complicated.”) While Jon puts on a show of storming the walls and gates, Daenerys resists the Mad Queen rising inside her and assaults the Red Keep with her dragon to cut off the head of the snake. Jaime has left for King’s landing, and we don’t know where Bronn is. They’ll meet and travel together for old fan-service sake. They’re both allowed into the city, maybe using the old Wookie prisoner gag. Jaime confronts Cersei, but he gets killed by the Mountain. The Hound finds the Mountain, and they attack each other on sight. Cersei watches smugly. Qyburn arrives and tries to say something witty and full of import. But a crossbow bolt from the dark takes out Cersei. Bronn sneaks away through the flames to tell Tyrion what he’s done and to claim the promised reward (“This fucking family!”). I would have him heft her body and carry it back as evidence (and to give Lena a final scene later), but supposedly, the two refuse to be on set together. Frankengregor defeats the Hound, but he dies as the tower burns around him. Daenerys approaches the Iron Throne, and she shares a complicated, full-of-import look with Jon, who tries to say something witty. The throne has been melted to slag by dragonfire. Qyburn slips out of the burning keep, then pulls his own face off and drops it in the mud as Arya walks through the wreckage of King’s Landing. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/507 "2019-05-09T19:33:53Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Sansa could refuse and I’d expect her to. In that world? I’m not sure. (Since you asked) there isn’t any example in the books that I can think of (there are evidences of opposite - where a Targaryen woman married into another house and their kids took the husband’s house name). And the title of the episode seems to indicate Sansa either does not refuse or dies or doesn’t have kids. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/508 "2019-05-09T19:59:27Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > I’m gonna violate the no book rule here mods because it pertains to a question of succesion and not comparisons: I’m very curious if in any of GRRMs books or his head if exactly that hasn’t happened. I know in Crusader Kings of course you can do that. > > But then again, in the books the families have SPRAWLING relatives…while here we could see the end of every single major house that started the series. With only the Baratheon family barely clinging on. And Arryn and Tully. When there is a whole thread in which you can discuss the books to your heart’s content, why do you feel it necessary to violate the rule and discuss them here? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/509 "2019-05-09T20:05:19Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Sansa could refuse and I’d expect her to. > > I’m gonna violate the no book rule here mods because it pertains to a question of succesion and not comparisons: I’m very curious if in any of GRRMs books or his head if exactly that hasn’t happened. I know in Crusader Kings of course you can do that. > > But then again, in the books the families have SPRAWLING relatives…while here we could see the end of every single major house that started the series. With only the Baratheon family barely clinging on. And Arryn and Tully. > > Weird to think that Storms End and Dragonstone sit mostly empty (if not completely) and Riverrun is manned by women and Edmure…if anyone thought to release him. This actually really annoys me. These are noble houses that have been around for millenia. There’s going to be an heir around somewhere. There’s no possible way for there not to be some Tyrell around with a claim to Highgarden, even if that Tyrell doesn’t actually have the name Tyrell. Somebody’s second cousin or what have you. I mean, seriously, there are over 5 _thousand_ people in line of succession to the British throne (minus however many of those are Catholic, but whatever). Those people are all descended from a single woman just over 300 years ago - more recent to us than the Targaryen conquest in Westeros. And yet do for four Baratheons and you can’t find someone to be Lord of Storm’s End without legitimizing some bastard. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/510 "2019-05-09T20:19:24Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > This actually really annoys me. These are noble houses that have been around for millenia. There’s going to be an heir around somewhere. There’s no possible way for there not to be some Tyrell around with a claim to Highgarden, even if that Tyrell doesn’t actually have the name Tyrell. There are systems of inheritance that do not recognize someone as being a Tyrell who doesn’t actually have the name Tyrell. Real life titles have often been extinguished because of the failure of the male line–inheritance through a woman was prohibited. Even in my own family I have been told that when a female relative marries, _she is no longer a member of your family_. > [@](#): > > Somebody’s second cousin or what have you. I mean, seriously, there are over 5 _thousand_ people in line of succession to the British throne (minus however many of those are Catholic, but whatever). Those people are all descended from a single woman just over 300 years ago - more recent to us than the Targaryen conquest in Westeros. And yet do for four Baratheons and you can’t find someone to be Lord of Storm’s End without legitimizing some bastard. I don’t know why you think it’s impossible for a noble family to run out of heirs. There’s even a name for the process of extinction of aristocratic family names – [the Galton-Watson process](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galton%E2%80%93Watson_process). ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/511 "2019-05-09T20:25:49Z")
Okay, it’s not impossible. But almost every noble house in the family is depicted in the shows as having no heirs outside of the direct descendants of the lord of that house at the beginning of the show. I guess you do see a few Lannister cousins, but off the top of my head I can’t think of any other cousins of noble families. It beggars belief that every single major noble house on the continent is down to just a couple heirs. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/512 "2019-05-09T20:32:52Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Okay, it’s not impossible. But almost every noble house in the family is depicted in the shows as having no heirs outside of the direct descendants of the lord of that house at the beginning of the show. I guess you do see a few Lannister cousins, but off the top of my head I can’t think of any other cousins of noble families. It beggars belief that every single major noble house on the continent is down to just a couple heirs. Seems like didn’t feel like going into that sort of work, because you’d have to explain it to some extent. I’m pretty sure Storm’s End would have some heir somewhere or at least someone would claim the city and start to rule over it - you aren’t going to have a major city that decides to just not have a government. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/513 "2019-05-09T20:37:08Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Okay, it’s not impossible. But almost every noble house in the family is depicted in the shows as having no heirs outside of the direct descendants of the lord of that house at the beginning of the show. I guess you do see a few Lannister cousins, but off the top of my head I can’t think of any other cousins of noble families. It beggars belief that every single major noble house on the continent is down to just a couple heirs. For all Tywins BS about family…the dumb shit didnt remarry after his wife died. So he was left with a guy in the Kingsguard, a dwarf, a weak ass nephew and some assorted weak links (The kids who were murdered and the guy Jaime killed) ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/514 "2019-05-09T20:42:26Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Okay, it’s not impossible. But almost every noble house in the family is depicted in the shows as having no heirs outside of the direct descendants of the lord of that house at the beginning of the show. I guess you do see a few Lannister cousins, but off the top of my head I can’t think of any other cousins of noble families. It beggars belief that every single major noble house on the continent is down to just a couple heirs. Well I guess that sort of thing happens when the only other male branch (Ned’s brother) pisses off to join The Watch. Then we have Edmure. As far as i can tell the only legitimate male heir of Riverrun…and the dumbass hasn’t even married (and then he was forced to) by age 40!!! (age of the actor then) He’s a senior citizen by medieval standards. Edit NONE of these guys have played Crusader Kings obviously. That kind of thing would have me freaking out if i were 40 and had no male heir. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/515 "2019-05-09T20:52:22Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Well I guess that sort of thing happens when the only other male branch (Ned’s brother) pisses off to join The Watch. > > Then we have Edmure. As far as i can tell the only legitimate male heir of Riverrun…and the dumbass hasn’t even married (and then he was forced to) by age 40!!! (age of the actor then) He’s a senior citizen by medieval standards. > > Edit NONE of these guys have played Crusader Kings obviously. That kind of thing would have me freaking out if i were 40 and had no male heir. But this is the problem! None of those guys have any cousins? Really? Robert Baratheon had two brothers, but his father didn’t have any? Ned had two brothers, but his father didn’t have any? Edmure didn’t have any brothers that I can remember, but his father also didn’t have any? Mace Tyrell had no brothers? Jon Arryn had no brothers? I’ll buy it for one or two houses, but it seems like it’s every damn noble house in the seven kingdoms aside from the Freys. And even the Freys are all descendants of Walder. He was just ridiculously prolific. So far as we know Walder didn’t have any brothers either. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/516 "2019-05-09T20:53:59Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Well I guess that sort of thing happens when the only other male branch (Ned’s brother) pisses off to join The Watch. > > Then we have Edmure. As far as i can tell the only legitimate male heir of Riverrun…and the dumbass hasn’t even married (and then he was forced to) by age 40!!! (age of the actor then) He’s a senior citizen by medieval standards. > > Edit NONE of these guys have played Crusader Kings obviously. That kind of thing would have me freaking out if i were 40 and had no male heir. In that case you’d just go up the family tree until you found an uncle or cousin who was close enough. The show just hasn’t wanted to go into that much detail. But with the Riverlands after Edmure, you’d have Brynden (the Blackfish) who presumably is still alive somewhere (?), so that would keep it in Tully hands. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/517 "2019-05-09T21:00:58Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > It beggars belief that every single major noble house on the continent is down to just a couple heirs. Does it really _beggar belief_? Remember, a story focuses on the groups that are in conflict. Noble houses that have been in conflict frequently are prone to losing members of the family. Look at what happened during the War of the Roses-Tudor-Stuart-Orange-Hannover era. The Yorks and the Lancasters fought for so long that in the end, the throne went to a Tudor. And then Mary and Elizabeth Tudor proceeded to kill off any relative with a strong claim to the throne. So the throne went to the Stuarts, which were then killed and deposed in favor of the House of Orange, which then had no heirs, so the throne went to the House of Hanover, which itself failed in favor of what we now call the Windsors. In these cases, _there had to be a monarch_, so when the male line failed, they found an heir through a female line. But a noble house doesn’t have to exist, so if there is a requirement for a male heir, when that male line fails, there’s no compulsion to find an heir through a female line. Look at lists of British peerages. They very often fail. And the highest level of the peerage–royal dukedoms–routinely go extinct, and revert to the crown. This process doesn’t “beggar belief.” ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/518 "2019-05-09T21:09:20Z")
It doesn’t beggar belief that some few of the noble houses have no heirs beyond the immediate family of the lord at the beginning of Season 1. It does beggar belief that seemingly all of the noble houses have no heirs beyond the immediate family of the lord at the beginning of Season 1. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/519 "2019-05-09T21:11:27Z")
Here’s a list of extinct royal dukedoms – [Royal dukedoms in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_dukedoms_in_the_United_Kingdom#Extinct_dukedoms) Let’s think about recent ones Duke of Windsor – created for the former King Edward VIII and it went extinct because he died without heirs Duke of Edinburgh – will merge with the crown upon Prince Phillips’ death (there seems to be a plan for the monarch to re-create it by granting it to the Earl of Wessex, but that’s beside the point) Queen Elizabeth II has created three new royal dukedoms during her reign – York, Cambridge, and Sussex. The Dukedom of York had gone extinct or merged with the crown _seven_ times before it was recreated for Prince Andrew; the Dukedom of Cambridge _four_ times, the Dukedom of Sussex, once before. So it’s not at all unbelievable for the highest noble families to go extinct a lot, especially during a period of internecine strife. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/520 "2019-05-09T21:13:45Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > It doesn’t beggar belief that some few of the noble houses have no heirs beyond the immediate family of the lord at the beginning of Season 1. It does beggar belief that seemingly all of the noble houses have no heirs beyond the immediate family of the lord at the beginning of Season 1. No, it really doesn’t. Maybe it’s higher than average (if you can figure out exactly what you’re averaging), but it isn’t at all unbelievable. Are you forgetting that there was a major civil war just 15 years before the start of Season 1? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524.md?page=27)