# Game of Thrones 8.04 "The Last of the Starks" 5/5/2019 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 5, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524 "2019-05-05T20:44:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/621 "2019-05-10T22:24:39Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > They did mention a new Dornish prince in the last episode at least, and Dorne is next to the Stormlands. They didn’t say anything about him other than that Dorne was supporting the anti-Cersei alliance. So who knows where he came from. Could be a Martell cadet line, a descendant through the female line (although Dorne allows women to inherit lordships), a bastard, or just one of the local lords who seized power. The fact that Bronn, who isn’t even a noble, was promised Riverrun and then Highgarden shows that the ruler can pretty much put anyone he wants in a vacant lordship, regardless of inheritance. (And of course, the Bolton’s were given Winterfell because of their support of the Lannisters.) Of course, it would be better politically to put in someone who has some connection to the former lordship. > [@ISiddiqui](#): > > We may need a lineage thread… > > Though a lot of these more broad questions about the world of Westeros may benefit from less limited specific threads, I guess. You can ask them in the book thread, or start a new thread not limited to the show. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/622 "2019-05-10T22:33:23Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > There are only two episodes left and the plot has moved beyond what happened in the books. Isn’t it time to get rid of the restrictions? What’s the point anymore? **Moderating** This was discussed in a previous show thread, and knowledge from the books could still be spoilers. For example, there is a prophecy about who will kill Cersei (the “valonqar” prophecy) that appears in the books but was not included in the show. If the show in fact follows the books then that could be a spoiler, even though the show is far past the point where the prophecy was made in the books. Likewise, someone brought up the “Horn of Winter,” which was significant regarding the White Walkers in the books but barely shown in the show, speculating that it could have been important in the fight against the Night King. As it turned out is it was not, but if it had been that could have been a spoiler. Basically, the rules have worked well in keeping the peace on a highly contentious issue for years, so I don’t see any reason to throw them away now. If you absolutely must discuss the books, there is a thread for that. Colibri Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/623 "2019-05-10T22:35:39Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > The Ironborn are more like Vikings than a nation of pirates, although they engage in piracy I’m sure. I’m not sure what’s so implausible about them. Is it because you don’t feel like the scale of their society is big enough from what we’ve seen? The show necessarily doesn’t show us the full scale of the world for practical reasons. Sure, we only see maybe 30 iron islanders at a time, but obviously we’re not meant to believe that this is a significant fraction of their population. The timing and strength of the iron fleet is probably implausible, but there are historically a lot of nations that were very effective sea powers disproportionate to their economic/land resources. Britain being the obvious example, but there are plenty. I don’t find the Ironborn being a powerful naval force all that implausible. > > It’s actually more implausible that they were allowed to exist indefinitely as a reaving nation while the kingdoms were at peace - the idea that they rebelled, and the rebellion was crushed, but somehow they’re still acting like raiders is pretty implausible. At that point if they couldn’t do anything else because their land was so useless then the rest of the seven kingdoms would’ve probably just wiped them out rather than continue to tolerate their ways. They keep saying “We do not die.” Are we supposed to take that literally? If so they wouldn’t have significant populations of farmers, crafters, etc. > [@Colibri](#): > > They didn’t say anything about him other than that Dorne was supporting the anti-Cersei alliance. So who knows where he came from. Could be a Martell cadet line, a descendant through the female line (although Dorne allows women to inherit lordships), a bastard, or just one of the local lords who seized power. > > The fact that Bronn, who isn’t even a noble, was promised Riverrun and then Highgarden shows that the ruler can pretty much put anyone he wants in a vacant lordship, regardless of inheritance. (And of course, the Bolton’s were given Winterfell because of their support of the Lannisters.) Of course, it would be better politically to put in someone who has some connection to the former lordship. In real English history, a family that fought against whoever won the crown was often stripped of its inheritance rights. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/624 "2019-05-10T22:52:09Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > They keep saying “We do not die.” Are we supposed to take that literally? If so they wouldn’t have significant populations of farmers, crafters, etc. They say, “What is dead may never die,” by which they mean someone who has been almost drowned (died) in their “baptism” as Ironborn will live on in an afterlife with the Drowned God. The Greyjoy’s house words are “We do not sow.” Traditionally, all manual work (farming, mining) in the Iron Islands was done by slaves/thralls. The Ironborn regarded the only honorable profession to be stealing from, raping, and enslaving their neighbors. They are a completely parasitical culture and consider it dishonorable to do any real work. ---
**Author:** ![gupwalla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@gupwalla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gupwalla)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/625 "2019-05-10T23:01:04Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > In real English history, a family that fought against whoever won the crown was often stripped of its inheritance rights. At best! There is probably an interesting short story to tell about Mathyw Tyrell, fourth son of one of Olenna’s many grandsons who were not as pretty as Loras and thus never made it onto the show, who was vacationing in Dorne when Jaime sacked Highgarden. By the end of the story he has permanently settled in Sunspear, changed his name to Smyth, and signed up as an apprentice cobbler because he’s learned that if you aren’t at least Loras-pretty there is no fortune to be had in begging. And he considers himself damned lucky to be alive, because Cersei does not like loose ends. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/626 "2019-05-10T23:21:10Z")
Wouldn’t he have changed his name to “Shoemaker” instead? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/627 "2019-05-10T23:27:41Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > They say, “What is dead may never die,” by which they mean someone who has been almost drowned (died) in their “baptism” as Ironborn will live on in an afterlife with the Drowned God. > > The Greyjoy’s house words are “We do not sow.” Traditionally, all manual work (farming, mining) in the Iron Islands was done by slaves/thralls. The Ironborn regarded the only honorable profession to be stealing from, raping, and enslaving their neighbors. They are a completely parasitical culture and consider it dishonorable to do any real work. I meant “we do not sow.” Damn autocorrect. They don’t farm, etc. they only steal. So far as I can tell from the depictions, don’t have enough land to maintain plantations full of slave farmers. All we know is that they steal. They’re like Vikings—raiders without the rest of Norse civilization. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/628 "2019-05-10T23:37:01Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Pretty much the only thing i knew was that at some point an event called “The Red Wedding” happened (without knowing what it was or who died in it), that fact that dragons existed at some point (because I saw random clips showing Naked Blond Chick riding them), and there was a lot of nudity 🙂 Well, you’re lucky then to be able to see all the episodes without waiting in between and without knowing what to expect. Finally, while seeing them back to back, did you notice a drop in quality in the last seasons that a lot of us perceived? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2019, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/629 "2019-05-11T00:39:06Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The fact that Bronn, who isn’t even a noble, was promised Riverrun and then Highgarden shows that the ruler can pretty much put anyone he wants in a vacant lordship, regardless of inheritance. (And of course, the Bolton’s were given Winterfell because of their support of the Lannisters.) Of course, it would be better politically to put in someone who has some connection to the former lordship. Don’t forget Harrenhal, which Janos Slynt, Tywin Lannister, Roose Bolton, and Petyr Baelish were all lords of at some point on the show. And Robb had promised it to Walder Frey. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2019, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/630 "2019-05-11T01:11:52Z")
> [@eunoia](#): > > It’s not only possible, but so technically trivial that I thought it was more likely the coffee cup was never in the shot in the first place and had been first ADDED in post-. I wasn’t talking about the technical ability to replace it in post, which I know is trivial, but to change it on their HBO GO stream while still leaving it paused at the same place when I returned to it. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > The drop in quality definitely happened during 5-8 This seems to be a commonly held opinion, but for my money the whole Sparrows storyline (which extended from the beginning of S5 to the end of S6) was one of the best the show has ever featured. And I think the hate for the Sand Snakes is a bit overwrought. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2019, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/631 "2019-05-11T01:41:03Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > And I think the hate for the Sand Snakes is a bit overwrought. What bugs me most about them is how flat-out stupid they were. They want revenge against the Lannisters, so they kill the single least dangerous Lannister, thus ensuring maximum response after inflicting the most minimal amount of damage. It’s like the Japanese fleet attacking Pearl Harbor for the sole purpose of leaving a flaming bag on the doorstep, ringing the doorbell and running. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2019, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/632 "2019-05-11T02:03:21Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Finally, while seeing them back to back, did you notice a drop in quality in the last seasons that a lot of us perceived? Definitely. The only reason I kept watching was because the earlier seasons were good, with excellent writing for a TV show. I think I mentioned in another thread, Ned getting killed was a surprise, especially because in all shows, the “good” guy usually gets saved at the last minute. Then the Red Wedding where everyone was killed. Now, as I think I mentioned before, it’s moving to “The Walking Dead” level of stupidity. If it was this bad at the beginning, I would have stopped watching. Now, I just want to see how it ends. But yes, pretty much everything was a surprise, and I didn’t have to wait years to watch all the episodes, so it was great in that aspect as well. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2019, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/633 "2019-05-11T04:28:13Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I get the impression that the allegiances aren’t very split on the Iron Islands. Euron seems to have clear control of the islands and their resources and their main fleet - Yara has a small splinter faction under her control. This episode we learned that Yara took back control of the Iron Islands. Which in and of itself is pretty darn stupid. Euron is still alive and well and in active command of the bulk of the Iron Island military force. Why in the world would the people back home give control to Yara? That makes no sense. Considering Euron’s campaign is almost certainly the largest military action in the entire history of the Iron Islands, think about a similar context in the real world. It’d be like during WWII, the American president personally leads the Africa campaign for the American troops. While that’s happening, Congress appoints a new President, choosing the loser of the last presidential election, because the current president is away _leading the military._ I mean, seriously? > [@SlackerInc](#): > > I wasn’t talking about the technical ability to replace it in post, which I know is trivial, but to change it on their HBO GO stream while still leaving it paused at the same place when I returned to it. Streams aren’t downloaded to a local hard drive like how a DVR works. It’s more like On Demand, which is also why fast forward, pause, rewind, and any kind of scanning is much faster and more responsive on a DVR than via On Demand or streaming. (I mean, obviously they buffer, but it’s the same difference as watching a video on youtube vs watching a video file on your hard drive.) All that to say that they merely had to update the server version of the show and then all the streamers automatically point to that new version. Since the length of the show didn’t change, your place is still saved correctly when you go back to it. > [@Colibri](#): > > The Vikings farmed, traded, and colonized as well as just raiding. I don’t know that we have a historical precedent for a society of any size that _only_ subsisted by raiding and disdained any other activities. Somali pirates, maybe? ---
**Author:** ![gupwalla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@gupwalla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gupwalla)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2019, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/634 "2019-05-11T04:54:54Z")
Yara was sent to capture the Iron Islands in Dany’s name; she wasn’t sent to call a snap election in the kingsmoot. Are we all watching the same show? Your scenario is probably not uncommon in history (though I don’t have any examples off the top of my head) but it’s 100% definitely Older Than Steam in historical fiction. _Ivanhoe_ has the titular hero teaming up with Robin Hood and the Black Knight (King Richard in disguise) to clear the path for Richard’s return to the throne, which Prince John has usurped while Richard was off on crusade. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2019, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/635 "2019-05-11T04:56:58Z")
> [@gupwalla](#): > > Yara was sent to capture the Iron Islands in Dany’s name; she wasn’t sent to call a snap election in the kingsmoot. Are we all watching the same show? Yeah, but she had exactly three ships and zero political support. Extremely implausible. Are we watching the same show? ---
**Author:** ![gupwalla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@gupwalla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gupwalla)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2019, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/636 "2019-05-11T05:30:00Z")
“Euron can’t defend the Iron Islands. Not if he’s in King’s Landing with all his men and his ships. We can take our home back.” Euron went all-in and didn’t leave a defense. I’m happy to assume Yara knows a good bit about the situation because Euron has a big mouth and no political restraint so she heard an earful of it down in the ship’s hold. But that’s an assumption and you’re free to assume otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![aurora\_maire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aurora_maire/32/328_2.png) [@aurora\_maire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurora_maire)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2019, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/637 "2019-05-11T05:31:46Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Yeah, but she had exactly three ships and zero political support. Extremely implausible. Are we watching the same show? Euron needs every man he can get for his biggest-in-history fleet. Who’s left there? Old men, women and children? Yara at least has fighters. And remember that Euron is not the brightest bulb. Theon of all people managed to infiltrate his fleet and sneak onto his flagship to rescue Yara. He’s apparently not so good at leaving someone to mind the store. But the main reason she went back was so there would be a place for the north folk to retreat to if the Night King won at Winterfell. So I expect her to show up to the fight at some point. And win or lose the Iron Islands there. (And what gupwalla said.) ---
**Author:** ![gupwalla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@gupwalla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gupwalla)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2019, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/638 "2019-05-11T06:07:54Z")
I don’t know if Yara has any role to play in the primary endgame, but assuming she survives to the cooldown material and assuming the post-war political situation looks something like Westerosi Standard, I do expect her to get a seat on the Small Council. If we get a really happy ending, and if Ellaria hasn’t gone completely mad down in the black cells, maybe she’ll even get a wedding! I’m not holding out hope for too much celebration though, but I’ll stock up on rice just in case I’m happily surprised. For the most part, I think her story is done. In terms of the main action, she’s cutting off the possibility for Euron to retreat and lick his wounds if things go badly for him, which is a slightly awkward “plug up the potential story hole in advance” kind of place for a character to be in, but there you have it. At least she’s back home. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2019, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/639 "2019-05-11T06:17:17Z")
> [@gupwalla](#): > > [Yara]'s cutting off the possibility for Euron to retreat and lick his wounds if things go badly for him Euron could lose 90% of his fleet, limp back home, and and still be strong enough to roll over Yara and her forces like blades of grass. (Because at 90% losses, he’d be down to 100 ships vs Yara’s 3. Even on land, that’s a 30:1 troop ratio in Euron’s favor.) ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2019, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/640 "2019-05-11T06:24:11Z")
Missed the edit window: Then again, Yara could decide to build and man 1000 NEW ships right now, and have them ready to go before Euron could sail back home. For me personally, Yara building and outfitting 1000 new ships right now before Euron gets home would be exactly the same amount of stupid as Euron building his 1000 ships in the first place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524.md?page=33)