# Game of Thrones 8.04 "The Last of the Starks" 5/5/2019 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 5, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524 "2019-05-05T20:44:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/161 "2019-05-06T15:12:26Z")
> [@GargoyleWB](#): > > Varys suddenly chickening out on the whole scheme? Suddenly being turned from master schemer into timid hand-wringer was very out of character. Interesting. I didn’t see this as hand-wringing at all, but very much in line with him scheming. Him not laying a contingency and just blindly charging forward with a plan he doesn’t think will work out would have been more out of character, IMO. The only part of his scheming I didn’t like was Jon being the alternative because he’s so obviously unfit to be a king. Varys delegates that bad decision to Tyrion, but I think Varys should have known better anyway. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/162 "2019-05-06T15:14:57Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Interesting. I didn’t see this as hand-wringing at all, but very much in line with him scheming. Him not laying a contingency and just blindly charging forward with a plan he doesn’t think will work out would have been more out of character, IMO. > > The only part of his scheming I didn’t like was Jon being the alternative because he’s so obviously unfit to be a king. Varys delegates that bad decision to Tyrion, but I think Varys should have known better anyway. Jon has several problems, but none of them are unsurmountable, as long as he has good advisors. Dany is perilously approaching Mad King levels of unsuitability. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/163 "2019-05-06T15:18:30Z")
they decided to get rid of 1 dragon before the final battle so the method they showed was probably about as good as anything. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/164 "2019-05-06T15:26:11Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Jon has several problems, but none of them are unsurmountable, as long as he has good advisors. > > Dany is perilously approaching Mad King levels of unsuitability. Jon ignores good advice all the time because he thinks honor demands it. He’s completely intellectually unsound for the job and lacks the flexibility needed. Just this episode he gets wonderful advice that would allow him to accomplish his goals and the goals of his self-professed queen. He undermines it at the first opportunity. Jon would get played in the capital worse than Ned ever did. _eta_ But yeah, if you think the choice is Jon or Dany and you assume Dany will torture to death anyone she thinks opposes her, then go with Jon. I’m just saying those are both shitty options. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/165 "2019-05-06T15:27:48Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The world has had hundreds of years to think about dragons and Dany is a rookie at actually commanding them. I’m sure her ancestors would have done exactly as some have advised, circle around and take their rear. But she’s not a thinker. She’s passionate and she behaved exactly as someone pissed off would, and she would have died along with her dragon on that frontal attack if she hadn’t come to her senses. Dragons were believed to be obsolete, so probably no one thought about dragon defense systems in centuries. The ballista design might have been found in the archives, or one of the mechanical engineering maesters was clever enough to design it from scratch. And when Dany said “Dracarys” as she was standing in front of Cersei, I thought that the remaining dragon was going to swoop in from behind Cersei and burn her. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/166 "2019-05-06T15:31:27Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Dragons were believed to be obsolete, so probably no one thought about dragon defense systems in centuries. The ballista design might have been found in the archives, or one of the mechanical engineering maesters was clever enough to design it from scratch. > > And when Dany said “Dracarys” as she was standing in front of Cersei, I thought that the remaining dragon was going to swoop in from behind Cersei and burn her. I think Qyburn was shown testing one on the dragon skulls in the Red Keep and designed the one Bronn used on Drogon. ---
**Author:** ![aurora\_maire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aurora_maire/32/328_2.png) [@aurora\_maire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurora_maire)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/167 "2019-05-06T15:36:32Z")
I was really, really disappointed in the way Ghost was treated. I understand that the CGI for the direwolves was very difficult to pull off but was there no way to just show a hand ruffling his fur? It was totally out of character for Jon to just leave him that way, especially since they showed that he had been hurt in the fight. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/168 "2019-05-06T15:44:39Z")
I’m getting the feeling this one isn’t sticking the landing like _Breaking Bad_ did… ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/169 "2019-05-06T16:00:43Z")
> [@aurora\_maire](#): > > I was really, really disappointed in the way Ghost was treated. I understand that the CGI for the direwolves was very difficult to pull off but was there no way to just show a hand ruffling his fur? It was totally out of character for Jon to just leave him that way, especially since they showed that he had been hurt in the fight. Yeah. It’s like none of the writers ever had a dog. No way would you just give a nod to your faithful dog and then leave, possibly to never see him again. My biggest disappointment overall for the TV series was their minimizing the dire wolves in the story. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/170 "2019-05-06T16:00:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Varys suddenly chickening out on the whole scheme? Suddenly being turned from master schemer into timid hand-wringer was very out of character. Varys has always claimed to be motivated by a desire to make things better for ordinary people (“the Realm” as he refers to it). Now that he sees Dany is becoming less and less stable, and may be on the verge of killing thousands of people, he is naturally reconsidering his support for her. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/171 "2019-05-06T16:16:58Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > > Dragons were believed to be obsolete, so probably no one thought about dragon defense systems in centuries. The ballista design might have been found in the archives, or one of the mechanical engineering maesters was clever enough to design it from scratch. > > > > And when Dany said “Dracarys” as she was standing in front of Cersei, I thought that the remaining dragon was going to swoop in from behind Cersei and burn her. > > I think Qyburn was shown testing one on the dragon skulls in the Red Keep and designed the one Bronn used on Drogon. Thank you for that, but I don’t think it made clear if the ballista design was new or he was building from an existing set of drawings. Either way he might want to test what he built. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/172 "2019-05-06T16:21:11Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Threatening to kill someone isn’t generally going to be well received. And as soon as he leaves the room, he can be arrested and put in a dungeon, or simply murdered or executed. His attitude really doesn’t make any sense to me. Bronn is counting on them feeling bound by “A Lannister pays his debts.” The Lannisters are pretty dishonorable but they do seem to feel bound by this one. But yeah, he’s probably overplayed his hand. Bronn’s not going to come out ahead no matter who wins. But it seemed a stupid way to get him into the plot, and then take him out again. There was limited tension in Cersei sending him to kill her brothers. Since they both had unfinished business with her, it was unlikely he would succeed. And given Bronn’s nature, he wasn’t going to outright help them. > [@AK84](#): > > Gilly knows. She was the first one to find out. :smack:Right. So actually nine people know, not eight. But Tyrion has no reason to know that Gilly knows. It’s more likely that Jon told Sansa that Danaerys knows than that he told her that Gilly knows too. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/173 "2019-05-06T16:29:42Z")
I wish we could see a scene with Dany that says “I understand the need for vengence and we’ll have it. We’ll roast alive every man, woman and child in the Red Keep if needed. But then what?? You’ve destroyed the Keep, Drogon is perched on the rubble, Dothraki and Unsullied are slaughtering soldiers in the streets…what do you think is going to happen then?? You’ll be coronated and the people will cheer?” I could write a five page essay defending Dany but basically she’s a good person and every good thing she’s tried to do has blown up in her face. She just helped save the fucking world and fucking Sansa is AMAZED that Arya respects her?? Fuck you Sansa. You swore and pulled a Littlefinger move immediatly. ---
**Author:** ![aurora\_maire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aurora_maire/32/328_2.png) [@aurora\_maire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurora_maire)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/174 "2019-05-06T16:31:38Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > :smack:Right. So actually nine people know, not eight. But Tyrion has no reason to know that Gilly knows. It’s more likely that Jon told Sansa that Danaerys knows than that he told her that Gilly knows too. We don’t know if Sam explained to Gilly what it meant that Rhaegar had married Lyanna. He didn’t know until Bran talked about Jon/Aegon being born. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/175 "2019-05-06T16:33:49Z")
The only reason I didn’t like the Bronn scene was because I was worried he was actually going to try to kill them. The actor that plays Bronn said something to the effect that we weren’t going to like him this season. I suppose given the reaction here to his assholeness that that’s all it could be, but honestly I didn’t find him too much out of character at all. He’s done more for them than they’ve ever done for him imo, and he is first and foremost a cutthroat that’s only in it for the money. Moderating Edited to spoiler information from an interview. Please spoiler information from non-show sources like interviews. Colibri ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/176 "2019-05-06T16:39:14Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > If the lookout is an idiot, then what can you do? A fair point. ---
**Author:** ![HammerJoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a6a055/32.png) [@HammerJoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HammerJoe)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/177 "2019-05-06T16:46:01Z")
What have they done to Tyrion character? He has been reduced to a drunken idiot after building him up as mastermind all these seasons so whats the point of keeping him around? Might as well have him killed in the crypt on episode 3. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/178 "2019-05-06T16:48:07Z")
**Ashtura** , could you spoiler box stuff like that in the future? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/179 "2019-05-06T16:55:34Z")
A disappointing episode, I thought, with too many characters doing too many stupid things just to move the plot along. > [@Slash1972](#): > > Jesus Christ, circle BEHIND the ships and light them up! Exactly. Don’t know why she wouldn’t, or didn’t. > [@ISiddiqui](#): > > …The scheming by Tyrion and Varys reminded me of past seasons… I actually wondered if Tyrion was trying to get Varys, whose loyalty to Dany is shaky at best, to say something particularly incriminating. Then he’d call out loudly, “Grey Worm, arrest this man!” and GW would step out of hiding and nick Varys for treason. > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Sure you can. Ned Stark kept that secret for 17 years. > > Someone needs to sit Jon down and remind him of how he always fucks it up when he does something because “he has to.” Absolutely. Dany begged Jon not to tell anyone his true origin - she might have \*ordered \*him. She’s his Queen, after all, as he keeps telling her. He ignored her. Brienne begged Jaime not to leave - he did anyway. Tyrion begged Cersei to surrender - she ignored him. Begging, er, tends not to work in GOT. > [@N9IWP](#): > > I was really hoping Sam (I think he would be most appropriate), should have said “Now his watch has ended” for Edd (and any other Night’s Watch folk)… Ooo, nice. > [@Colibri](#): > > …It’s even more obscure why Varys would be plotting a Targaryen restoration. His primary loyalty is to the realm, and the Targaryens were, until the Mad King’s last few years, pretty good for Westeros, all in all. > [@Colibri](#): > > Once Grey Worm and Missandei started planning to buy a beach condo in Narth in episode two, I knew one of them (but not both) was a goner… Yeah, might as well just paint crosshairs on themselves. > [@DrCube](#): > > The ballistas did more damage to those ships than actual cannons would have. Holy moly those are some magic arrows. If Maester Mengele played a role in their manufacture, they just might be. > [@HammerJoe](#): > > …BTW where is the Theon Sister? Why wasnt she and her army going with them to the island?? They said in the council of war that Yara Greyjoy had just reconquered the Iron Islands. Maybe she’s consolidating her rule and building up a new fleet. I’m sure we’ll see her again (naturally) just in the nick of time. > [@Ashtura](#): > > …Even Tyrion didn’t die and he should have looked like this. > > [Dying Season 1 GIF by American Gods - Find & Share on GIPHY](https://giphy.com/gifs/americangods-starz-american-gods-xUPGcIb6MUmPXS0QCY)… Heh. That’s a lot of arrows. I wondered why Cersei didn’t just order him pincushioned, then either fire on Dany’s party with the ballistae and/or order a major sortie from the city gate. Dany had only a relatively small contingent of Unsullied with her, and her sole remaining dragon (whose name escapes me) would still be at risk of ballista fire from the city walls. Cersei could end the war right then and there. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/180 "2019-05-06T17:09:06Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > **Ashtura** , could you spoiler box stuff like that in the future? Edited to spoiler information from interview. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524.md?page=10)