# Game of Thrones 8.05 "The Bells" 5/12/19 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 12, 2019, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869 "2019-05-12T22:06:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/301 "2019-05-13T21:08:14Z")
I am reasonably sure that Jamie and Cersei have survived, the supposed death was from the side with a fall of rubble, with a sort of “we’ll make it” vibe to it. Just rewatched it. Nothing unambiguous, like Qyburn, ie: proper dead. Room for manuevre. They’ll be in Pentos plotting a return from exile. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/302 "2019-05-13T21:16:23Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > I am reasonably sure that Jamie and Cersei have survived, the supposed death was from the side with a fall of rubble, with a sort of “we’ll make it” vibe to it. Just rewatched it. Nothing unambiguous, like Qyburn, ie: proper dead. Room for manuevre. They’ll be in Pentos plotting a return from exile. They were trapped, there was no where to go. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/303 "2019-05-13T21:17:00Z")
Jamie was mortally wounded, and that was a very fitting end for his character, a way to not betray his main flaw(his love for Cersei) and yet still be a better person. Cersei might be dug out of the rubble, but Jamie is quite dead in all likeilhood. I agree that it is likely Cersei survived, because he dying that way is just not what fans would want to see. But Jamie’s character arc ends there, so keeping him around doesn’t make much sense. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/304 "2019-05-13T21:18:41Z")
Yeah, Qyburn is dead, the Mountain smushed his head like play-doh. I really hope Jaime and Cersei are, too. It’s _possible_ that the collapsing castle actually opened up an exit and allowed them to escape, but it doesn’t fit with the way they filmed the scene or anything else, really. It would just be another cheap twist for twists’ sake. They might as well bring Syrio Forel back to rule Westeros. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/305 "2019-05-13T21:33:54Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Daenerys will climb up on Drogon to burn Jon, Tyrion and anyone else we care about when suddenly Drogon pulls off his face and it’s Arya. If this happened I would instantly forgive everything bad about seasons 7-8 and declare this the best show of all time. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/306 "2019-05-13T21:34:21Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I didn’t realize it the first time : Varys was trying to poison Danaerys, right? I’m kinda leaning towards Vary’s may have been feeding Dany some psycho tropic drugs, rather than poison itself. Just enough to amp up her paranoia and have to be removed. I could see Varys using poison, but one thinks that he had other tools in the toolbox. Which in turn leads me to wonder actually how mad was the mad king, if Varys was around then. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/307 "2019-05-13T21:35:39Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > I’m kinda leaning towards Vary’s may have been feeding Dany some psycho tropic drugs, rather than poison itself. Just enough to amp up her paranoia and have to be removed. I could see Varys using poison, but one thinks that he had other tools in the toolbox. Which in turn leads me to wonder actually how mad was the mad king, if Varys was around then. There is no way Varys is trying to drive her insane right before the battle, he was trying to save kings landing. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/308 "2019-05-13T21:37:56Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > There is no way Varys is trying to drive her insane right before the battle, he was trying to save kings landing. No, Tyrion was trying to save KL, Varys was making sure that the right person got the throne. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/309 "2019-05-13T21:44:36Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > …Daenerys will climb up on Drogon to burn Jon, Tyrion and anyone else we care about when suddenly Drogon pulls off his face and it’s Arya. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > If this happened I would instantly forgive everything bad about seasons 7-8 and declare this the best show of all time. I could get behind that, maybe, except that nothing can make up for six minutes of Arya seeing a horse…a Horse… …A HORSE…oh, the wonder of it, the astonishment of it, the absolute MIRACLE of it! And the slo-mo approach…so drawn-out, so lovingly filmed for minute upon minute…and she TOUCHES the horse! And it’s THE MOST AMAZING THING EVER! And what a completely draining EMOTIONAL WHAMMY of an ending!!! …no. Nothing can make up for _that_. ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/310 "2019-05-13T22:11:43Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Jamie was mortally wounded, and that was a very fitting end for his character, a way to not betray his main flaw(his love for Cersei) and yet still be a better person. Cersei might be dug out of the rubble, but Jamie is quite dead in all likeilhood. I agree that it is likely Cersei survived, because he dying that way is just not what fans would want to see. But Jamie’s character arc ends there, so keeping him around doesn’t make much sense. Jamie has a gut stab, which Arya shrugged off at the end of season 6, so I don’t assume much from that. Maybe it is their end, but this series has trained me to expect survival unless you’ve seen the head smooshed in or cut off. Ok, except Stannis. Danys driven mad, and yet Cersei surviving does seem the sort of bitter revenge never exercised and leaves Danys losing in the only way she really could after the bells rang and the gates had been thrown open. Still, one more episode to go. I expect to see a couple in the sunshine with a toddler as one of the final scenes of the last episode… ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/311 "2019-05-13T22:14:53Z")
Last night’s episode was the most epically awesome thing that ever sucked. What’s so strange is that what didn’t work seems so obvious and easily avoidable. 1. Dany’s mad queen arc is perfectly acceptable and there has been enough runway for a take off during this episode, but there needed to be an immediate trigger. Anything would have worked. Ideally I think they should have showed her going a bit more nuts when her first dragon was killed, saved the second dragon death for this episode which could have triggered last night’s rampage. 2. I haven’t seen much criticism of how Arya’s conversion to the light happened as a result of one sentence from the Hound. Years of desensitization and revenge training gets turned around with “Dont be like me?” That scene needed to be longer or more impactful to make Arya do a 180. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/312 "2019-05-13T22:16:50Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > I am reasonably sure that Jamie and Cersei have survived, the supposed death was from the side with a fall of rubble, with a sort of “we’ll make it” vibe to it. Just rewatched it. Nothing unambiguous, like Qyburn, ie: proper dead. Room for manuevre. They’ll be in Pentos plotting a return from exile. They are dead. Very very dead. Castle fell on top of them dead. > [@Smid](#): > > Jamie has a gut stab, which Arya shrugged off at the end of season 6, so I don’t assume much from that. > > Maybe it is their end, but this series has trained me to expect survival unless you’ve seen the head smooshed in or cut off. Ok, except Stannis. > > Danys driven mad, and yet Cersei surviving does seem the sort of bitter revenge never exercised and leaves Danys losing in the only way she really could after the bells rang and the gates had been thrown open. > > Still, one more episode to go. I expect to see a couple in the sunshine with a toddler as one of the final scenes of the last episode… Euron says he killed Jaime. Don’t ignore moments like that. Its in there for a reason. It’s pretty straight forward. He was stabbed in each side. Slow kill but still a kill. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/313 "2019-05-13T22:17:55Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I really hope Jaime and Cersei are, too. It’s _possible_ that the collapsing castle actually opened up an exit and allowed them to escape, but it doesn’t fit with the way they filmed the scene or anything else, really. It would just be another cheap twist for twists’ sake. They might as well bring Syrio Forel back to rule Westeros. Jaime and Cersei are both dead because it would be anticlimactic and serve zero dramatic purpose to bring either of them back in the final episode, any more than bringing the Night King back would. There might be some chance if there was another season ahead, but not for a single episode. Episode 3 resolved the conflict with the Night King. This episode resolved the conflict with Cersei, but set up the conflict with Danaerys as the Mad Queen. Having Cersei survive would just confuse the resolution of that final conflict. People sometimes propose outlandish things just because they think “anything can happen.” There has to be some dramatic reason to bring Cersei back, and there isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/314 "2019-05-13T22:18:57Z")
[Moderating] **Colibri** has already addressed this point, but since this thread isn’t supposed to have any non-show info in it, even in spoiler boxes, I’ve edited **AK84** ’s post about the leaked info. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus\_alba](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quercus_alba/32/4061_2.png) [@Quercus\_alba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus_alba)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/315 "2019-05-13T22:22:24Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > 1. I haven’t seen much criticism of how Arya’s conversion to the light happened as a result of one sentence from the Hound. Years of desensitization and revenge training gets turned around with “Dont be like me?” That scene needed to be longer or more impactful to make Arya do a 180. I think it was less the Hound’s one-liner, and more the visceral experience of seeing Dany’s revenge enacted on such an inhumane scale, or more likely both, combined with pining for the real human love that she turned down back at Winterfell. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/316 "2019-05-13T22:22:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > [Moderating] > **Colibri** has already addressed this point, but since this thread isn’t supposed to have any non-show info in it, even in spoiler boxes, I’ve edited **AK84** ’s post about the leaked info. Thank you. Spoiler boxes get revealed if they are quoted on my phone browser. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/317 "2019-05-13T22:25:30Z")
> [@Rusalka](#): > > I think it’s pretty clear that Arya is destined to kill Dany from all of the signals in this episode. I don’t think the people of Westeros would accept Jon/Aegon Targaryen after his reputation has been sullied through his association with the Mad Queen. I certainly am disappointed in him. He’s a bit of a wimp - there are other principles more important than blind loyalty. I’m interested in how the show will resolve this. I hope Tyrion makes himself scarce instead of offering himself up to be slaughtered. Please go into hiding, Tyrion! I want to hear Dany’s explanation, however crazy, for killing everyone after the King’s Landing surrender. She could have just gone straight for the Red Keep and spared everyone else. It makes no sense - and how was she avoiding hitting her own troops? > > And why did Bran end up being so useless? He had this grand story arc that ended in a whimper. > > All that being said, I really do appreciate the subtle way the show showed Dany’s cruel streak from the very beginning of her story arc through some of her morally murky choices but led us to ignore it through her other “good deeds”. Excellent job! No I think Jon has to kill Dany. That will full circle back to one of the first scenes where Ned says he who passes the sentence must be the executioner. It will be more impactful since Jon loved her (at least did). Arya’s already had her heroic kill. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/318 "2019-05-13T22:26:52Z")
> [@Quercus\_alba](#): > > I think it was less the Hound’s one-liner, and more the visceral experience of seeing Dany’s revenge enacted on such an inhumane scale, or more likely both, combined with pining for the real human love that she turned down back at Winterfell. The castle was literally crumbling around them, she didn’t just change her mind on a whim. ---
**Author:** ![Telperion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telperion/32/509_2.png) [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/319 "2019-05-13T22:32:11Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Thank you. Spoiler boxes get revealed if they are quoted on my phone browser. Yeah, exactly the same thing happened to me. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/320 "2019-05-13T22:32:28Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > No I think Jon has to kill Dany. That will full circle back to one of the first scenes where Ned says he who passes the sentence must be the executioner. It will be more impactful since Jon loved her (at least did). Arya’s already had her heroic kill. Jon probably will pass sentence on Dany. But to permit the audience to see Jon as having nobility and goodness and clean hands, the actual instrument of Dany’s death will be Drogon: Jon will pass sentence, Dany will say “oh, really? Drogon, fry him,” and Drogon-----recognizing the True Blood and Rightful Ruler-----will fry Daenerys instead of Jon. Because that will permit the audience to take pleasure in how noble and good and clean-handed Jon is, while satisfying the bloodlust to see Dany not only dead, but humiliated (by having her ‘child’ turn on her). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869.md?page=17)