# Game of Thrones 8.05 "The Bells" 5/12/19 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 12, 2019, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869 "2019-05-12T22:06:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/401 "2019-05-14T17:41:47Z")
Even more absurd was the undead Viserion destroying the Wall with ice breath but that can be dismissed with “magic”. Fire breath isn’t supposed to be magical in the GoT universe (I don’t think) so the amount of kinetic energy a fully grown Drogon can unleash to disintegrate the fleet and very solid masonry structures just defies any reasonable suspension of disbelief. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/402 "2019-05-14T17:42:43Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Well, that was a terrible episode. > Yep, this is pretty much my take. > > Daenerys has always been clear about her commitment to being Queen, and perfectly willing to kill to get her way, but there has always been a logic to it, a sense that these particular deaths are necessary to advance her claims, or are reasonable payback for betrayal. That’s why some of the apparent hostility and ruthlessness she demonstrated last episode around Jon’s claim to the Iron Throne was perfectly in character. That’s why executions like the Tarleys were rather brutal and possibly unnecessary, but also in character. She’s always been ruthless. > > But they have never set her up as the female equivalent of her Mad King father, until this episode. She and her dragon and her forces had won, the bells were ringing (could that have\* taken\* any longer?), and there was basically nothing to stop her from taking Cersei and killing her with dragon fire in front of everyone in King’s Landing. Or she could have left the rest of the city alone and just brought the Red Keep down around Cersei’s ears, for pretty much the same result. > > The victory, and her execution of Cersei, would have established her power and authority just fine. Hell, if she played it right, she might even have earned some of the loyalty that she claimed to desire, because it’s been pretty clear for seasons now that many of the people of King’s Landing, and Westeros more generally, didn’t exactly love Cersei; they mainly feared her. Kill Cersei, and rule in a benevolent fashion, and loyalty might come more quickly than you expect, especially if Jon Snow was wiling to say in public exactly what he had been saying to Daenerys and everyone else: “I don’t want to be king.” And if it looks like it might not be working, THEN you’ve still got the dragon and can start frying some of the malcontents. > > Throughout the series, most of the loyalty Daenerys got came NOT as a result of her birthright claim to a throne, but as a result of deeds that either demonstrated her unique powers, or actions that helped people in particular ways. Missandei made that point last season, at Dragonstone, when she said to Jon Snow that she and the Daenerys’ other followers were loyal because of things that Daenerys had done, not because of who her father was. > > And all of this is besides the terrible writing that, depending on the exigencies of the plot, has the dragons as either victims in a turkey shoot or invincible death machines. When Daenerys and the three (3!!!) dragons attack the slavers’ fleet in Mereen (S6E9), it takes them multiple blasts of fire to wipe out each ship. Now, apparently dragon fire can take out multiple ships in a single quick sweep, and bring down massive stone buildings at a mere glance. I disagree. This is been foreshadowed since the very beginning. It’s been well-established that Targaryen’s are prone to insanity and evil. She has been shown to be on edge many times in 8 seasons. Her advisers, her family Apple is been there to keep her on track. But Selmy is dead. Jorah is dead. Missandei is dead. Varys betrayed her. Jon betrayed her. She doesn’t trust Tyrion. Grey Worm is a bred killing machine now only filled with hate. There is no buffer between her and her worst instincts. She has been set up to be the mad queen since the beginning and given plenty of reason to make the turn. You might not like how they did it specifically But if you don’t think this was set up from the very beginning you haven’t been paying attention. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/403 "2019-05-14T17:52:06Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > Even more absurd was the undead Viserion destroying the Wall with ice breath but that can be dismissed with “magic”. The director of that episode explicitly said the undead dragon’s breath was still fire, not ice, and it was melting the wall. He wanted a different color for the breath because the dragon was now undead, and green was already taken by wildfire, so he chose blue. Regardless how much heat and melting was going on in that scene, though, there was clearly a very strong force component to it as well. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/404 "2019-05-14T17:52:25Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > You mean, as opposed to now, where everybody hates her guts, has no advisers or allies, and her only protection is being always very close to her dragon? I’m not saying she’s _right_. Or that her analysis is objective and dispassionate. She’s always been power-hungry (natural response to her powerless, desperate childhood) and now she’s paranoid and isolated. Passively accepting surrender and leaving her shot at the throne dependent on others’ goodwill isn’t an option she’s going to pick. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/405 "2019-05-14T17:56:26Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > Even more absurd was the undead Viserion destroying the Wall with ice breath but that can be dismissed with “magic”. > > Fire breath isn’t supposed to be magical in the GoT universe (I don’t think) so the amount of kinetic energy a fully grown Drogon can unleash to disintegrate the fleet and very solid masonry structures just defies any reasonable suspension of disbelief. My sense while watching was that Drogon was causing caches of wildfire to ignite as he fire bombed King’s Landing ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/406 "2019-05-14T18:03:14Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > The director of that episode explicitly said the undead dragon’s breath was still fire, not ice, and it was melting the wall. He wanted a different color for the breath because the dragon was now undead, and green was already taken by wildfire, so he chose blue. > > Regardless how much heat and melting was going on in that scene, though, there was clearly a very strong force component to it as well. Sometimes in a visual medium they are going to do things just because they look cool. The blue fire looked really cool. Sometimes it’s best not to look too deep at it. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/407 "2019-05-14T18:04:19Z")
Im pretty stone will explode if its heated by 2000 degrees in a second. I do agree there seems to be an artistic disconnect since sometimes people go up in flames, sometimes they instantly turn to ash, leaving their bodies in the same pose, and then stone explodes but people don’t? On a different subject…the hysteria over this season is off the rails (not here so much. As i’ve said before, you all are generally a level-headed lot)…but man in the rest of the interspace??? ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/408 "2019-05-14T18:09:46Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > My sense while watching was that Drogon was causing caches of wildfire to ignite as he fire bombed King’s Landing But not the fleet or the gate. Wildfire is another thing that’s just poorly written. The significance of Wildfire in the story turned out to be… a force multiplier for the side with the airforce. It really feels like the writers are trying to check all the plot points that Martin scribbled on a napkin and have no idea how to get from point A to point B. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/409 "2019-05-14T18:09:52Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > You mean, as opposed to now, where everybody hates her guts, has no advisers or allies, and her only protection is being always very close to her dragon? Well she still has the Unsullied and whatever Dothraki are left. Basically similar level of protection as Aegon the Conqueror, I’d imagine. > [@EllisDee](#): > > Oh yeah, what was that about? Didn’t the Red Keep fall during Robert’s Rebellion? (I don’t actually know, and if the show doesn’t tell us explicitly, I guess it’s off-topic.) They did mention it in show as well - Aerys II opened the gates of the Red Keep to Tywin Lannister, thinking he was coming to help Aerys against Robert, who was marching to the city (Tywin had not yet declared for a side yet). Tywin was not. He came to overthrow help Aerys (or rather to be the on the ‘winning side’). ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/410 "2019-05-14T18:12:39Z")
They made the stone explode because it looked cool, its canon that it should melt instead. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/411 "2019-05-14T18:14:30Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > She could always do it herself too. Drink wildfire or some such. Yes, I mentioned it in a previous post. That she could be horrified of what she has done. Because I assumed that it was some psychotic break. But plenty of people are arguing now that it was a calculated move, with some convincing arguments. In which case, of course, she isn’t going to commit suicide. Hopefully, we’ll learn in a week what her true motivations were. I’ll be a bit pissed if the writers don’t provide in some way an explanation and we’re left to guess. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/412 "2019-05-14T18:17:00Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Dany depends on her dragon, a dragon that is known to be killable, given enough concentrated ballista-fire. Next week is an even numbered episode, so ballistas will have a 100% kill rate vs dragons. One ballista will be sufficient. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/413 "2019-05-14T18:17:27Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > But that’s the point… up until now she “solved” problems. There was reason behind her acts, good intent, even. > > If you want to make her into the sort of villain that just kills random people for fun, you have to show that change taking place, because, while she had been going a bit nutters in the last episodes, this is a couple or more of whole new levels of crazy. > > Or, you know, you don’t have enough talent, so you just go “she just does, screw it.” She’s not “killing random people for fun”. She is enraged because of all the shit that’s been building up, but in particular because of the death of Missandei and Dragon #2. In Danny’s mind, she is the rightful queen (Jon’s claim notwithstanding) and even her allies are either betraying her (Varys), giving her attitude (Sansa) or simply inept (Tyrion). She can barely get the people to support her rightful claim, and yet the population of King’s Landing lets Cercei sit on the throne. So IOW, it’s their own damn fault they made her torch their city. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/414 "2019-05-14T18:19:34Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > D > > It seems like the showrunners wanted lots of collapsing buildings in this episode, so they gave dragonfire the power to explode buildings. OK, fine …(we hadn’t seen dragons used against buildings before, so I’ll give it a pass). Some people have pointed out that if a dragon breath is so powerful that it can collapse the walls of a fortress, people hit by it should be send flying 20 meters above the ground, rather than staying on their feet burning. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/415 "2019-05-14T18:24:01Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > But they have never set her up as the female equivalent of her Mad King father, until this episode. It seems to me that a number of people wondered if she could turn to be like him. Or am I imagining that? > [@](#): > > When Daenerys and the three (3!!!) dragons attack the slavers’ fleet in Mereen (S6E9), it takes them multiple blasts of fire to wipe out each ship. Now, apparently dragon fire can take out multiple ships in a single quick sweep, and bring down massive stone buildings at a mere glance. They’ve grown since. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/416 "2019-05-14T18:28:29Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > She’s not “killing random people for fun”. She is enraged because of all the shit that’s been building up, but in particular because of the death of Missandei and Dragon #2. In Danny’s mind, she is the rightful queen (Jon’s claim notwithstanding) and even her allies are either betraying her (Varys), giving her attitude (Sansa) or simply inept (Tyrion). She can barely get the people to support her rightful claim, and yet the population of King’s Landing lets Cercei sit on the throne. So IOW, it’s their own damn fault they made her torch their city. Yes. Yes. I’m very aware that there are cheap attempts at giving motivation to her character’s radical shift. And in the hands of a semi skilled writer, I’m sure it could be less jarring by adding any sort of ambiguity to the build up. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/417 "2019-05-14T18:36:19Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > Yes. Yes. I’m very aware that there are cheap attempts at giving motivation to her character’s radical shift. > > And in the hands of a semi skilled writer, I’m sure it could be less jarring by adding any sort of ambiguity to the build up. She SAID in the previous episode exactly why she was doing what she did - she realized that the people of Westeros would never love her, and Jon rejecting her meant she could not marry into Westeros and become loved that way. Her status had been reduced to that of a usurper or conqueror. So if you can’t rule by having the people love you, you have to rule by fear. And the best way to rule by fear is to start out with a gigantic object lesson in what will happen to you if you don’t obey. Far from being ‘cheap’, it’s an incredibly common way to rule. History is full of cities being razed to inspire fear in the population so that they’ll behave. Entire rebellious regions have been starved to death as a lesson to others. Daeneris was probably right - if she really was to take back the seven kingdoms and hold it, she either had to do it as a beloved liberator, or as a feared conqueror. When Jon rejected her she lost her last opportunity for the people to love her, so rule by fear was all she had left. I think she intended to burn down King’s Landing at the moment she said to Jon, “Fear it is, then.” ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/418 "2019-05-14T18:39:49Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > So IOW, it’s their own damn fault they made her torch their city. I know you’re somewhat joking, but Dany did use very similar logic in this very episode, claiming that it was Sansa’s fault that Varys turned traitor because Sansa let Jon’s secret out. “It was Sansa’s fault I had to kill Varys!” ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/419 "2019-05-14T18:41:30Z")
They are not “cheap attempts at giving motivation”. She implicitly stated from the start that her goal is not just to regain the Iron Throne, but the “break the wheel”. She implicitly states that since the poeple of Westeros will not love her then she will rule by fear. She implicitly states that if the people of KL wanted to be spared they would rise up and drag Cearsi before thier true Queen (her) and views this failure as a betrayal. She knows that she cannot trust Tyrion and Jon, so having them be the champions for “accept surrender if the bells ring” is not a winning move for her. She tells Grey Worm that he will know when to press the attack and having a dragon fry a street full of Lannisters and civilians is a pretty unambiguous signal. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/420 "2019-05-14T18:46:46Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Daeneris was probably right - if she really was to take back the seven kingdoms and hold it, she either had to do it as a beloved liberator, or as a feared conqueror. When Jon rejected her she lost her last opportunity for the people to love her, so rule by fear was all she had left. I think she intended to burn down King’s Landing at the moment she said to Jon, “Fear it is, then.” Sorry but that doesn’t make sense given what she actually did. If she was going to burn down King’s Landing no matter what why did she wait until after they surrendered the city? if that was her plan she had plenty of chance to do it during the battle. What they showed was Dany having a breakdown, not following a plan. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869.md?page=22)