# Game of Thrones 8.05 "The Bells" 5/12/19 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 12, 2019, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869 "2019-05-12T22:06:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/561 "2019-05-15T20:15:46Z")
It seems to me that some people were just too invested in the whole Khaleesi/Savior thing, and they just can’t let that go, even though this trajectory has been hinted at the whole time. I really don’t understand the argument that it would be better had they shown her being evil by murdering innocents and not caring previously. The argument seems to be that they’d be more willing to accept the turn if the turn happened already, but wouldn’t that spoil the turn? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/562 "2019-05-15T20:20:57Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > Secondly, she didn’t round up “some random high-ranking officials.” She rounded up the heads of the leading families in Meereen. Granted, she had no hard proof that they were involved with the Harpies; but since they were the ones who had lost the most by her new rules, and since the Harpies seemed very well-organized, well-informed, and well-financed, she felt justified in the conclusion they were the driving force behind the Harpies. Dany is justified in the extrajudicial murder of people she is annoyed with because, well, don’t they seem like the kind of people that deserve to be murdered without proof of any wrongdoing? I see. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/563 "2019-05-15T20:21:22Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > … you seem to be arguing that as the case but then refuse to accept that same logic in the sack of KL despite Dany explicitly saying that the commoners of KL are not innocent bystanders. I know Dany said they weren’t innocent bystanders. My point is, she made that pronouncement roughly 24 hours (in show time) before she incinerated most of the men, women and children of King’s Landing. You and others are arguing we’ve seen multiple examples of this descent into madness on her part. I (and others) are saying we haven’t, not on this scale, and not to this degree. And just having her say something like that right before she does it is a poor attempt at justification for her actions on the part of the writers and showrunners. As someone else said upthread, it would have made much more sense if we’d seen her being blasé about her ability to use the dragons – or her own power – to kill indiscriminately. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/564 "2019-05-15T20:26:56Z")
It’s not a plot twist if the twist already happened. ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/565 "2019-05-15T20:34:49Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Mirri Maz Durr > [@EllisDee](#): > > It’s only from Dany’s perspective that she was justified, same with the witch Mirri Maz Duur calmly admitted to murder. I know Season 1 was a long time ago, but this has already been pointed out repeatedly in this thread. Her ritual also destroyed Dany’s ability to have any future children, which she, again, outright and calmly admitted. You don’t get to stab a mother in the stomach, not magically or otherwise, just because the father is a mass-murdering dick. These were appallingly brutal crimes against Dany, and against the child. Duur was guilty as sin. Her crimes might have been justified, and in her place, I might’ve done the same thing. But I can say the same thing about Dany’s position. If someone killed my kid, you’d better believe I would light their ass up given the lack of any other functional justice system. _Especially_ if I knew I’d get three dragons out of the execution of a child murderer. > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > some of the Master of Mereen (Hizdahr zo Loraq’s father and the one she fed to her dragons for specific examples). The masters of Meereen were slavers, including Hizdahr’s father. He was “innocent” of having advocated the crucifixion of the slaves, at least according to his son. He was still guilty of slavery, and of participating in the resistance to the emancipation of those slaves. The North would’ve been justified in hanging quite a lot of Confederate leaders. Maybe it would have been bad policy, but it was a sentence more than commensurate with the crime. Dany was justified in executing the Grand Masters when she took the city. In her case, it might’ve even been good policy, given what the bastards cooked up later. But after the pardons went out… > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > and the one she fed to her dragons for specific examples This actually seems to be a genuine example. I will think about this one. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/566 "2019-05-15T20:45:07Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Dany is justified in the extrajudicial murder of people she is annoyed with because, well, don’t they seem like the kind of people that deserve to be murdered without proof of any wrongdoing? > > I see. “Extrajudicial”? Bloody hell. She’s the queen. She IS the judicial system. For the umpteenth time – I have no issue with Dany going full-blown mad like this. I’m sure that was GRRM’s intent and plan all along. I’m not some disappointed Dany fan-boy. I don’t have a “Dany for President!” tattoo. My issue is with the problems within the show itself, and this is an excellent example. If you’re going to tell (or show) a story and make it believable, you have to be consistent with the framework you’ve created. You can have (or ignore) all sorts of rules about the world, but once you’ve established how things work, you can’t then just trample all over those rules. For example: - Entire armies can’t traverse a huge continent twice and fight major battles before a woman who was pregnant begins to show (Cersei) - Dragon breath should either melt stone (Harrenhal) or cause it to explode (King’s Landing), but it shouldn’t do both - Characters who have been shown to be excellent schemers, planners and manipulators (Tyrion, Varys) shouldn’t suddenly and inexplicably be outwitted time and again by those less intelligent than them - A leader who has lost one of her most valuable assets to a long-range spear shot, and who has had her fleet destroyed by another fleet via a sneak attack, shouldn’t suddenly lose ANOTHER valuable asset to a long-range spear shot via a sneak attack by a fleet - People who have waged war in a certain way for centuries shouldn’t suddenly forget the tactics used during that entire time (Battle of Winterfell) And for those who are claiming it’s a “plot twist”: There are ways to handle a plot twist without wrecking the underpinnings of your story. I thought the twist in _The Sixth Sense_ was fantastic, and I re-watched the movie as soon as I could to appreciate the nuances that led up to it. That type of subtlety and foreshadowing seems beyond the reach of the _Game of Thrones_ writers and showrunners. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/567 "2019-05-15T20:49:11Z")
It was _symbolism!_ She was _mad!_ ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/568 "2019-05-15T20:51:25Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > I know Dany said they weren’t innocent bystanders. My point is, she made that pronouncement roughly 24 hours (in show time) before she incinerated most of the men, women and children of King’s Landing. You and others are arguing we’ve seen multiple examples of this descent into madness on her part. I (and others) are saying we haven’t, not on this scale, and not to this degree. No, I have never said anything about madness in this entire thread. I’m objecting to you saying there has been no previous examples of her killing innocents without concern when that’s clearly wrong. Yes she has. We have cited them for you. > [@](#): > > And just having her say something like that right before she does it is a poor attempt at justification for her actions on the part of the writers and showrunners. Say something like what? That the commoners could overthrow Cersei if they wanted to? It’s true, they could. Hell, they practically did it once before with the Faith Militant. The fact that they don’t is at least equal justification to consider them enemy combatants as the beaurocrats in Mereen from Dany’s perspective. You seem to be picking and choosing when to judge Dany from her perspective (previous examples she didn’t consider them innocent so she wasn’t killing innocents) vs judging her objectively (she didn’t consider them innocents but WE do so she was killing innocents). That’s not really a good faith debate. > [@](#): > > As someone else said upthread, it would have made much more sense if we’d seen her being blasé about her ability to use the dragons – or her own power – to kill indiscriminately. We did, last episode. If they had shown it earlier, I expect you would have been in _that_ episode thread spamming this same argument. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/569 "2019-05-15T20:54:38Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > - Dragon breath should either melt stone (Harrenhal) or cause it to explode (King’s Landing), but it shouldn’t do both. I don’t understand the problem here. Different kinds of stone react differently to dragon fire. Harrenhal stone melts, Kings Landing stone explodes. They don’t look the same, why would they react the same? ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/570 "2019-05-15T20:55:09Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > If they had shown it earlier, I expect you would have been in _that_ episode thread spamming this same argument. I’m “spamming an argument”? Nice. > [@](#): > > I’m objecting to you saying there has been no previous examples of her killing innocents without concern when that’s clearly wrong. Yes she has. We have cited them for you. Really? Where? You obviously have no issues with the show and how it’s being handled. On the other hand, I’ve enjoyed this show for years, and am sad to see something that could have been so good fall so short of the mark. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus\_alba](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quercus_alba/32/4061_2.png) [@Quercus\_alba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus_alba)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/571 "2019-05-15T20:56:37Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > “Extrajudicial”? Bloody hell. She’s the queen. She IS the judicial system. > … > > - Dragon breath should either melt stone (Harrenhal) or cause it to explode (King’s Landing), but it shouldn’t do both > … It might be more a quality of the type(s) of stone involved–Harrenhall could have been more metallic or crystalline perhaps, King’s Landing more porous, allowing rapid vaporization of water with explosive effect. For that matter, they were different dragons, too. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/572 "2019-05-15T20:57:24Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Mirri Maz Durr and some of the Master of Mereen (Hizdahr zo Loraq’s father and the one she fed to her dragons for specific examples). Ok, let’s go through all the alleged atrocities that Daenerys committed and see if, together, they fit the profile of someone who would _burn tens of thousands of innocent children alive for absolutely no reason at all_ Actually, scratch that. Let’s look at this idea that she had to _burn tens of thousands of innocent children alive_ to shore up her position and prevent Jon Snow from taking her place. It’s ridiculous. Yes, Jon is the rightful heir, but he _doesn’t want the throne_. Like, not at all. Heir or not, nobody has the power to just force him to be king. It’s not like the Night’s Watch where he was fairly elected by his sworn brothers. He has no affinity for the South, no ties to anyone outside of Winterfell, and, oh yeah, _he supports Daenerys unconditionally_. He’s not like Stannis either. Stannis didn’t particularly want to be King, but he knew it was his duty and, for Stannis, duty always came first, no exceptions. Jon has made _tons_ of exceptions. He had a duty to keep his vows, yet he broke them with Ygritte. He had a duty to obey Stannis, yet he mercy-killed Mance Rayder. One could argue he had a duty to _rebuke_ Stannis and deny him the use of Castle Black, even after Stannis saved him from the Wildlings because “The Night’s Watch takes no part in the troubles of the realm”, but he forsook that one too. And isn’t it weird that he executed Alliser Thorne, Bowen Marsh, and Olly and then immediately quit as soon as they were dead because “His watch has ended”? Which is it, Jon? Either you’re the Lord Commander or you’re not. If you are, great. Hang away, but you have a _duty_ to stick around and _stay_ Lord Commander, not sneak out through a loophole as soon as you’ve got your vengeance. If you’re not, great. Then you have a _duty_ to let your successor do the hanging. However you slice it, Jon is no slave to duty. He wouldn’t take the mantle of King just because it was his birthright if he didn’t want to or if there was someone else better available. And he _didn’t_ want to, and there _was_ someone better available. At least, there was until she _burned tens of thousands of innocent children alive_ So no. I don’t for a moment believe that Jon was in any way a serious contender for the throne. Therefore, there was no reason for Daenerys to think she had to barbecue King’s Landing in order to terrify those who might support Jon over her. Especially since Jon _yet again_ swore fealty to her literally the night before the battle. So that leaves one other explanation: That she was a sociopath all along, but we just didn’t notice it because all the people she hurt before were bad too. For the sake of balance, let’s have a look at some of the _good_ things she did first. 1. She took in the Lhazarene women to keep them from being raped by Khal Drogo’s men. 2). She freed the slaves at Astapor and Meereen. 3). She closed the Mereenese fighting pits and only re-opened them in a desperate bid to keep the peace. 4). She married Hizhdar Zo Loraq to help keep the peace, even though she despised him and was in love with Dario. 5). She chained up her dragons…_to keep them from attacking children!_ 6). She forgave Jorah Mormont after he betrayed her. 2. She chose not to hire sell swords, even after the Wise Masters of Meereen gave her enough gold to buy, like, _all_ of them, preferring to rely on her Unsullied, at least in part because the Unsullied could be trusted _not_ to kill innocent people. Indeed, when she liberated them from Astapor she expressly told them not to kill innocents or anyone who surrendered. That’s just the stuff I can recall off the top of my head. And that’s not even touching all the times she was visibly upset at the death of innocents. I say all this, by the way, as someone who’s emphatically _not_ a Dany fan. I’ve always thought she was a boring character. I just don’t think the writers did anything to _earn_ our credulity when she decided to set King’s Landing on fire even after the battle was won. But maybe I’m taking too rosy a view. Let’s look at some of the bad stuff she did and see if it in any way foreshadows her decision to _burn tens of thousands of innocent children alive_ 1). Killed Mirri Maz Duur - Mirri Maz Duur promised to bring Khal Drogo back from the dead. Instead, she brought him back as a vegetable and sacrificed Daenerys’s unborn child to do it, knowing it would leave her barren. All this after Daenerys has done her best to protect her. Don’t tell me that bitch didn’t have it coming. 2). She wasn’t visibly upset when Drogo killed Viserys - Well, given that Viserys had sexually and emotionally abused her since childhood and forced her to marry Khal Drogo, saying _”I’d let his whole tribe fuck you, all forty thousand men and their horses too if that what it takes”_, I don’t think I’m being overly charitable if I forgive her for not crying salty tears into her wine cup when Drogo got rid of him, especially since he’d threatened to cut her baby out of her literally two minutes earlier. 3). She burned the Warlocks in the House of the Undying - Well, they _had_ stolen her dragons and were actively trying to kill her. 4). She shut Xaro Xoan Daxos and Doreah in the vault and left them to die - They’d murdered Irri and Jhiqui and stolen her dragons. Again, they got theirs. 5). She burned the slavers at Astapor - Big deal. They were slavers who made their soldiers kill babies as part of their “training”. 6). She crucified the Wise Masters of Meereen - Again. Big deal. They’d crucified like a hundred and fifty innocent children just to try and scare her off. And yeah, not all of them “voted for it”, but who gives a shit? Even the best of them were still slavers. 7). She burned Vaes Dothrak - The Khals were planning to keep her locked up in Vaes Dothrak for the rest of her life just because she used to be married to Khal Drogo. Was she supposed to just sit there and take it. I imagine if Jon Snow was being held captive somewhere and could only escape by killing a few people he’d probably do that too. Besides, they’re Dothraki. They only respect strength. The children of King’s Landing? Not so much. 8). She burned the ships in Slaver’s Bay - Yeah, the ships which were throwing fire balls Meereen at the time. 9). She _burned tens of thousands of innocent children alive_. Even after the battle was won. Even though she had absolutely nothing to gain by doing so. And let’s not forget that this wasn’t just one errant attack on one group of civilians. No. She went all over the city, burning street after street after crowded street _for a good half an hour!_ One of these things is not like the others. For me to believe that this massacre was within the scope of Daenerys’ character, I would’ve needed to see evidence of real cruelty beforehand. None of her past actions remotely qualify. They were all either responses to cruelty or they were directed solely at people who seriously deserved it, or both. Yeah, she talked a lot of shit about burning cities, but she was also pretty easily talked out of it as well, which suggested to me as a viewer that it was just that; talk. I’m genuinely pissed off at the writers for handling her “Mad Queen” turn so sloppily. It’s like if Walter White had gone straight from killing Tuco to arranging the prison massacre with nothing in between. If Daenerys was always destined to ‘Break Bad’ they should’ve been a lot more nuanced with her character work before having her go apeshit with one week to go. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/573 "2019-05-15T21:01:02Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > You obviously have no issues with the show I have quite a few issues with this season and last season, and have even detailed some of them in this very thread. (Though much moreso in previous threads.) Dany’s turn is not one of those issues. It’s one of the few things they’ve done mostly right. Some minor tweaks would have made the sack of King’s Landing better, I’ll happily concede that. But it wasn’t the monumental fuckup it’s being painted as in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/574 "2019-05-15T21:06:29Z")
[quote=“Ellis\_Dee, post:573, topic:833869”] … [QUOTE] Huh. I could’ve sworn your post included a statement saying the “innocent children of King’s Landing” were “innocent _to us_, maybe, but not to Dany.” When I submitted this post, though, that part was gone. Which is for the best … I mean, if you’re going to say Dany ISN’T mad, and that she DIDN’T consider those children innocent because … wait, why, again? Because they didn’t rise up in some sort of Children’s Crusade and demand Cersei’s ouster? Yeah … THAT would be crazy, right? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/575 "2019-05-15T21:08:12Z")
I didn’t say “children.” Please don’t attribute words to me that I didn’t say. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/576 "2019-05-15T21:12:28Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I didn’t say “children.” Please don’t attribute words to me that I didn’t say. No; I thought you were responding to **Unreconstructed Man** ’s use of the term “innocent children.” As I said, I could have sworn that was part of your post. My apologies. I’m not trying to misquote you, or misattribute. If I’ve inadvertently broken a board rule, please feel welcome to report this. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/577 "2019-05-15T21:14:05Z")
Nope, all good. Using quotation marks (as opposed to quote boxes) only requires conveying the gist of it, and that was the gist of it. I felt it wasn’t the strongest response so I edited it out and changed it to the final sentence that’s there now. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/578 "2019-05-15T21:32:07Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > Tell you what: Show me another instance anywhere in the history of the show in which Dany goes out of her way to slaughter innocents or noncombatants and I’ll agree with you. Or, for that matter, another instance in which she’s shown as not caring at all whether her army lives or dies. This is something that has been building for eight years. Yes, this is beyond what she has done previously, but the antecedents have been very clearly set out, and all through this season as people have shown everyone and everything that was preventing her from following her worst instincts has systematically been removed. That’s what I mean by it not being a “sudden turn.” There might have been some doubt if the show would finally go down that road, but all the warning signs were there and have been since the first season. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/579 "2019-05-15T21:35:13Z")
Has anyone heard the idea that Arya is already dead? ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2019, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/580 "2019-05-15T21:39:05Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Has anyone heard the idea that Arya is already dead? That seems like it would be a pointless reveal. Any surprises need to be in service to the story. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869.md?page=30)