# Game of Thrones 8.05 "The Bells" 5/12/19 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 12, 2019, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869 "2019-05-12T22:06:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/601 "2019-05-16T01:31:05Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I had the impression her lack of appetite was real, but coincidentally thwarted Varys. If she was worried about that, she could have had someone of unquestioned loyalty like one of the Unsullied prepare her food, or use some other strategy. And the first person she accused of betraying her to Tyrion was Jon, and poison would never have been Jon’s way. No, she had the whole story. Notice she wasn’t surprised when Tyrion named Varys. Instead, she immediately recounted to Tyrion that Jon told Sansa, who told you and then you told Varys. So she knew Varys knew but Jon betrayed her. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/602 "2019-05-16T01:45:23Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > The idea is that she rides off on a pale horse. Some people think that the horse is the one ridden by the leader of the Golden Company (or something like that), and the producers made a point of the horse being killed. The little girl Arya tries to save is carrying a white toy horse. Arya is repeatedly shown being trampled by the stampeding crowd. … > [@Colibri](#): > > **I can’t think of another case in which this show has done that kind of a fake-out. In fact, I don’t think they’ve shown anyone appearing as a spirit or ghost after death.** I don’t think they’ll start now. I also can’t see it serving any kind of plot point now. Yes (my emphasis). It would be very jarring to have a character appear as a ghost in this show in which in yea-many hours of episodes, that’s never happened. Also, the “pale horse” being significant is not supported by any previous mention of such in the show. Just because one particular religious group in this world sees the concept of a “pale horse” as being a profound element of their religious text, doesn’t mean it carries any specific meaning in the _Game of Thrones_ world. (The writers could have made it so had they wanted to. But they haven’t established any such thing.) ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/603 "2019-05-16T02:04:09Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > 😕 So everyone in the company has to learn everyone else’s names afresh each day? If you want a proper answer to this question, you’ll have to ask it in the open discussion thread. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/604 "2019-05-16T02:06:17Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Yes (my emphasis). It would be very jarring to have a character appear as a ghost in this show in which in yea-many hours of episodes, that’s never happened. We’ve had typical cliff-hanger episode endings where a character appeared to be a goner (e.g. Jaime’s near-drowning after the Battle of the Goldroad) but later appeared alive. But we haven’t seen to my recall a character who appeared to be alive at the end of an episode turn out to really be dead. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/605 "2019-05-16T02:21:16Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Also, the “pale horse” being significant is not supported by any previous mention of such in the show. Just because one particular religious group in this world sees the concept of a “pale horse” as being a profound element of their religious text, doesn’t mean it carries any specific meaning in the _Game of Thrones_ world. (The writers could have made it so had they wanted to. But they haven’t established any such thing.) I would tend to agree. While “death” riding a pale horse has a religious significance, in this case, I think it’s more about creating “haunting imagery” of a lone pale horse that just happened to survive the cataclysm (presumably it’s original owner wasn’t so lucky). In fact, I kind of feel like this image is frequently used in film and tv. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/606 "2019-05-16T02:24:24Z")
Too many people disagreed with me about the Danys thing to quote them all, so let me just explain what I am saying. With Anakin, there _was_ setup, it was just pathetic: occasional comments about dictatorships and allusions to him being a hothead, being steered by Palpatine, culminating in executing some sith dude instead of taking him prisoner. Transitioning to the dark side was a stretch, let alone that same day massacring children. And I felt the same way about Dany, even though there has been far more setup. I felt there was still a big gap between what has been set up and Dany going full on “Burn them all!” ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/607 "2019-05-16T02:29:32Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Stick around and watch The Wire, Deadwood Rome, and The Sopranos if you haven’t already. Though I think they’re all on Amazon Prime, too, unlike GoT. Best TV series for my money is The Leftovers, also on HBO. ---
**Author:** ![Telperion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telperion/32/509_2.png) [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/608 "2019-05-16T02:33:08Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > And I felt the same way about Dany, even though there has been far more setup. I felt there was still a big gap between what has been set up and Dany going full on “Burn them all!” Yeah, that’s about how I feel too. Jesse Cox articulated it better than I could [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kOx0EBXVlc). ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/609 "2019-05-16T02:34:03Z")
Y’know when she tells Tyrion “you did not disappoint Sansa” meaning she knew Sansa fully expected him to go ahead and set things in motion… don’t fail me one more time etc. She then tells him they have captured his brother. In this context it would seem like Danaerys should fully expected Tyrion to indeed go to his brother and try to hatch a harebrained scheme… > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > From Daeneris’ point of view, it was totally logical for her to do what she did. There was no path to the throne for her left other than to rule through power and fear. None. > … > And if you’re going to do that, you had better instill that fear right out of the gate, or you’re just going to have to do it later. > > This isn’t insanity - it’s the logic of tyrants. And many tyrants have been heroes - until the going gets really tough and ‘hard’ decisions have to be made. Then they show their true colors. Indeed. Her “mercy” line reflects it: you can paraphrase it as “we’re going to go through this terrible ordeal so future generations don’t have to”, a common propaganda line in many a war or many a crisis. One defect I have observed on Dany’s part is that she feels \*entitled \*to be loved _the way she wants it to be_. By Jon, by the people. And she considers herself grievously wronged when it does not happen. Part of her problem is that though Jon does not want to rule, and she may even believe him when he says he does not want to rule, she just knows that there is a whole nation who would acclaim him and, under the right circumstances, heave her off the throne and forcibly shove him into it whether he wants it or not. So one other thing that she’s doing by obliterating the capital city and all that population is not just providing an example of what all others must fear, it is also denying her opposition a “base” in any condition to do anything. (A more real problem whoever ends up alive next week has is that she has just plunged the kingdom into economic depression by annihilating a major center of trade and crafts and a huge chunk of its tax base and fixed assets, and charbroiling a significant part of the labor force… but since when has high fantasy taken that into account) > [@nate](#): > > I don’t get the leap from “she wanted to rule by fear” to burning down the whole city. She could have easily ruled by fear without doing so. She could have easily destroyed the Red Keep without destroying the rest of the city (in fact, when she took off after the bells rung, I believe we were supposed to think she was heading for the Keep) if she wanted to ensure victory and death of Cersei’s crew. This isn’t supposed to be some long-held plan of hers, the show was trying to convey she snapped and went crazy, not like evil tyrant crazy, but absolutely unhinged freakout, need to be in a padded room, mad-king type of crazy. > > Having said that, I wouldn’t be surprised if in the next episode she’s back to the personality she had before the battle. Not because it makes any sense, but because the writing in the show has been a disaster for the past two seasons. I have been thinking, that if this is madness it is \*episodic \*madness. At a critical point, the Blood Lust just took over and she went berserker: could think, see, feel nothing but _Dracarys_, because after all she has done she is just not getting the satisfaction of victory. She is normally just a would-be enlightened despot, as others have said looking more noble and righteous because her enemies were so vile. But lately everyone who was sincerely close to her is getting whacked, her heretofore sage advisors have gotten into snorting the Incense Of Bad Decisions, her would-be prince consort now wants nothing to do with THAT and turns out to outrank her… the closer she’s to the top the more things turn shitty. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus\_alba](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quercus_alba/32/4061_2.png) [@Quercus\_alba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus_alba)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/610 "2019-05-16T02:36:52Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Yeah, I was going to respond “sez who”? Dragons are fantasy creatures. Dragon’s breath is a fantasy substance. Who says that if you show dragon’s breath doing X at one time then it mustn’t be able to do Y at another time. No one in the context of the fiction made such a rule. > > We know that at least once dragon’s breath melted part of a castle, and that at least once it blew up much of a fortified city. And once the breath of a zombie dragon tore down a magic wall of ice. > > That’s not enough of a sample to draw any conclusions about the limits of dragon’s breath or to label that an inconsistency. African or European dragon? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/611 "2019-05-16T03:36:15Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Dragons are fantasy creatures. Dragon’s breath is a fantasy substance. Who says that if you show dragon’s breath doing X at one time then it mustn’t be able to do Y at another time. No one in the context of the fiction made such a rule. > > We know that at least once dragon’s breath melted part of a castle, and that at least once it blew up much of a fortified city. And once the breath of a zombie dragon tore down a magic wall of ice. > > That’s not enough of a sample to draw any conclusions about the limits of dragon’s breath or to label that an inconsistency. In that case no story has ever had an inconsistency. You can explain anything if you are allowed to add extra ad hoc information or propositions. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/612 "2019-05-16T04:25:08Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > The idea is that she rides off on a pale horse. Some people think that the horse is the one ridden by the leader of the Golden Company (or something like that), and the producers made a point of the horse being killed. _It is_ the same horse. Whether or not the writers intended us to notice it was the same, I don’t know (although I assume yes), but it is. However, it’s not clearly seen as being dead. It’s just seen lying on the ground. In fact I remember wondering if the horse was dead or not when I first saw the golden company’s commander death scene. My take is that it’s just there to give a glimmer of hope. Like for instance showing a small flower growing in a devastated landscape. Somehow, it managed to survive despite all odds, and so did Arya. ---
**Author:** ![eunoia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eunoia/32/97_2.png) [@eunoia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eunoia)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/613 "2019-05-16T04:29:42Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > You’re mistaken. “Torgo Nudho” is Grey Worm in Valyrian; he only ever had that name as far as we know. Now I wonder if Torgo means “grey” or “worm”? I’ll bet SDMB user **Torgo** would know but their last post was January 2006. Where has the time gone? > [@CarnalK](#): > > No, she had the whole story. Notice she wasn’t surprised when Tyrion named Varys. Instead, she immediately recounted to Tyrion that Jon told Sansa, who told you and then you told Varys. So she knew Varys knew but Jon betrayed her. We may _still_ not be giving Daenerys or the writers enough credit for playing the Game of Thrones. Don’t go to the courthouse to change your daughter’s birth certificate just yet is all I’m saying. There’s still room for a really powerful ending that muses both about the nature of loyalty as the true seat of power, as well as showing, very directly in a way that is very easy for viewers to understand, how easily it is shaken. > [@clairobscur](#): > > I don’t think so. I think the nod simply meant : “OK, do as he says”. Or: “Told you he’d try to spare his siblings and King’s Landing.” ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/614 "2019-05-16T04:30:41Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > Tell you what: Show me another instance anywhere in the history of the show in which Dany goes out of her way to slaughter innocents or noncombatants and I’ll agree with you. Or, for that matter, another instance in which she’s shown as not caring at all whether her army lives or dies. Why? If a kid shoots up a school, do we not believe it if they never killed anybody else? No, we look to see if there were any red flags. Dany had red flags coming out the wazoo. You can’t even use the “but she was such a good kid” defense. She wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/615 "2019-05-16T04:51:00Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > Dany had red flags coming out the wazoo. Of course she had. She used to be a complex, layered character. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/616 "2019-05-16T05:53:45Z")
I really hope we aren’t going to start next episode with Jon and/or Tyrion fretting around Dragonstone, whining to Dany all “Hey, what were you doing? Didn’t you hear the bells?” It’s got to be that both of them are on the run, beginning the resistance, straightaway at the beginning of the episode. Right? > [@Biffster](#): > > Best TV series for my money is The Leftovers, also on HBO. First season is a tough hang. I recommend skipping all but the pilot and “Guest”, maybe the season finale, then go from there. Starting with S2, it’s one of the best shows of all time. > [@JRDelirious](#): > > I have been thinking, that if this is madness it is \*episodic \*madness. At a critical point, the Blood Lust just took over and she went berserker: could think, see, feel nothing but _Dracarys_, Right, kind of like Dark Phoenix. What made that story so tragic is how much her adopted “family” loved Jean Grey. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/617 "2019-05-16T06:30:58Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I would tend to agree. While “death” riding a pale horse has a religious significance, in this case, I think it’s more about creating “haunting imagery” of a lone pale horse that just happened to survive the cataclysm (presumably it’s original owner wasn’t so lucky). In fact, I kind of feel like this image is frequently used in film and tv. When it was happening I assumed they were pulling a Pale Rider sort of thing. I was expecting, in fact, the camera to pan down after Arya left to show us Arya’s dead body. And it would have been very… Cheesy. Really cheesy. But, hey, it’s not like the books don’t indulge in the occasional serving of cheese. So it’s fine. Really dramatic. Viewers aghast. The futility of life and how all, noble and peasant, fall in front of god-like power. Good stuff. But they didn’t. Now, ambiguity would make sense if it was the last scene. With a whole episode to go, that ambiguity makes little sense, and means a missed opportunity to cap the Bells episode with a big, dramatic moment. However, I guess that something like Jon Snow finding his sister’s dead body, the viewers being all “so that horse was actually Death, huh?” and that triggering the final confrontation could work too. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/618 "2019-05-16T10:57:49Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > In that case no story has ever had an inconsistency. > You can explain anything if you are allowed to add extra ad hoc information or propositions. You’re the one adding extra information by concluding that “because dragon’s breath melted Harrenhall, that means that dragon’s breath is limited to melting stone in all cases.” The story does not say that, not in any way at all. That’s not how fantasy fiction works. It’s the atory’s prerogative to set a limit like that and it doesn’t, neither explicitly nor implicitly. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/619 "2019-05-16T11:16:39Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > You’re the one adding extra information by concluding that “because dragon’s breath melted Harrenhall, that means that dragon’s breath is limited to melting stone in all cases.” You are quoting somebody else, I have never said any such thing. If you want to know my opinion about the dragon’s breath, I don’t actually care: it’s an inconsistency, but not a critical one, or one which spoils my enjoyment of the show. Stuff like fast travel is a bigger problem for me. > [@](#): > > The story does not say that, not in any way at all. That’s not how fantasy fiction works. It’s the atory’s prerogative to set a limit like that and it doesn’t, neither explicitly nor implicitly. If something is inconsistent, it’s inconsistent. If you find that OK because fantasy, then fine. What I’m disagreeing with, is the notion that if you can fanwank an explanation, then it’s not an inconsistency at all. You can explain away \*any \*apparent contradiction in \*any \*fiction if you’re cool with adding on ad hoc suppositions specifically for that purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/620 "2019-05-16T11:28:29Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > You are quoting somebody else, I have never said any such thing. > If you want to know my opinion about the dragon’s breath, I don’t actually care: it’s an inconsistency, but not a critical one, or one which spoils my enjoyment of the show. > Stuff like fast travel is a bigger problem for me. > If something is inconsistent, it’s inconsistent. If you find that OK because fantasy, then fine. > > What I’m disagreeing with, is the notion that if you can fanwank an explanation, then it’s not an inconsistency at all. > You can explain away \*any \*apparent contradiction in \*any \*fiction if you’re cool with adding on ad hoc suppositions specifically for that purpose. I’m using “you” in a general sense. There’s no inconsistency in the story on this point and I’m not fanwanking. I’m simply taking the information that the story itself gives us, which is: 1. One dragon’s breath melted Harrenhall 2. A zombie dragon’s breath broke the Wall 3. Another dragon’s breath exploded the Red Keep That’s all the story tells us about the capabilities of dragon’s breath when it is used on large structures. There is nothing inherent in those depictions that is either inconsistent or contradictory. There is nothing in those depictions that says that any one of them represents a limitation on dragon’s breath. There is nothing in those depictions that says that this is what will happen every time dragon’s breath is used. You have to fanwank to create any inconsistency or contradiction. Specifically, you must draw the conclusion that — — One dragon’s breath melted Harrenhall; thus, _any time dragon’s breath is used on a stone structure, the structure will melt and will not explode or crumble or be affected in any other way_. _That’s_ the fanwank. That limitation is not in the story. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869.md?page=32)