# Game of Thrones 8.05 "The Bells" 5/12/19 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 12, 2019, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869 "2019-05-12T22:06:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/621 "2019-05-16T11:31:56Z")
> [@eunoia](#): > > We may _still_ not be giving Daenerys or the writers enough credit for playing the Game of Thrones. Don’t go to the courthouse to change your daughter’s birth certificate just yet is all I’m saying. Well, they’ll have to be extremely creative now to make Danaerys into a good person. Unless we learn that she’s been warged by Bran, or replaced by a faceless man, it’s difficult to come back from burning children alive out of spite. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/622 "2019-05-16T11:42:19Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Best TV series for my money is The Leftovers, also on HBO. Reading a synopsis : After travelling to Australia on the advice of the voices in his head, Kevin Sr. learns from a prophetic chicken [a prophetic…chicken??] that a flood will come on the seventh anniversary of the Departure, leading him to believe it is his destiny to stop the flood. :eek:😕:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/623 "2019-05-16T11:43:21Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Also, the “pale horse” being significant is not supported by any previous mention of such in the show. Just because one particular religious group in this world sees the concept of a “pale horse” as being a profound element of their religious text, doesn’t mean it carries any specific meaning in the _Game of Thrones_ world. (The writers could have made it so had they wanted to. But they haven’t established any such thing.) 😕 I don’t think people are saying that Arya took the pale horse as a sign of death, but that we, as the audience, could. Or are you saying that a show can’t use symbolism with their audience unless the in-show universe has the same symbolism? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/624 "2019-05-16T12:02:49Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Stuff like fast travel is a bigger problem for me. This is the kind of thing I couldn’t possibly give less of a wet fart about. Not because it’s fantasy, but because it’s not a travel documentary. The stuff I want to see during the limited screen time isn’t discussions of how long it takes a certain amount of soldiers to march a certain distance; nor do I want the show to compromise on awesome or affecting or otherwise interesting scenes in order to ensure that the logistical stuff is internally consistent. Character consistency is far more important to me, so I care more about whether Dany etc. is acting in a way consistent with her character. I think she is, but I understand folks disagree. However, I don’t think the disagreement is a problem. The show creators–writers, directors, actors, and more–are artists creating art. If they create something that plausibly works, and I disagree with some of their artistic decisions, that’s still an interesting work. It’s only if they did something completely out of character (Dany watches the surrender of soldiers, leaps off her dragon, and sings a Broadway Musical song about winning against the odds) that I’d be worried. Yeah, there’s some ambiguity in her motives: is she in barbarian fury? Is she spiteful as hell? Is she following through on a calculated plan to shore up her support? There’s evidence for each possibility, and it’s worth discussing. I appreciate this sort of ambiguity in stories. Others don’t, that’s fine, but it’s a matter of taste, not a matter of artistic failure. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/625 "2019-05-16T12:03:55Z")
I like the “Arya is dead” fan theory as a fan theory. It’s fun, and I totally see the evidence people are pointing to. I wouldn’t like it if the show actually did that, though, mainly because they went out of their way to imply that there is no afterlife and there are no ghosts. On two separate occasions they had Melisandre directly ask people who were raised from the dead about the afterlife, and both guy said there was nothing, only blackness. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is the kind of thing I couldn’t possibly give less of a wet fart about. Not because it’s fantasy, but because it’s not a travel documentary. Normally this is exactly how I would feel as well. But for this particular show, the early seasons were essentially travel documentaries with Arya & the Hound and Brienne & Jaime. Even in later seasons with Jorah & Tyrion, for that matter. That’s the main reason I personally find the instant travel so jarring. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/626 "2019-05-16T12:22:05Z")
I don’t necessarily want to watch characters crossing the country, but the story would have benefited from some sense that there is a passage of time, and things aren’t happening right after each other. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/627 "2019-05-16T12:37:07Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Normally this is exactly how I would feel as well. But for this particular show, the early seasons were essentially travel documentaries with Arya & the Hound and Brienne & Jaime. Even in later seasons with Jorah & Tyrion, for that matter. That’s the main reason I personally find the instant travel so jarring. Interesting. I watched Season 1, watched the first few minutes of Season 2 which was a montage of infants being brutally murdered, and Noped right out of the show until like season 6 or so. Given the thread’s rules, I’ll just say that I have a remarkable and almost preternatural ability to guess how the progressed in the meantime, so I was able to pick up on what was happening in Season 6; maybe that’s why I don’t care too much about seeing the travelogue. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/628 "2019-05-16T12:45:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Interesting. I watched Season 1, watched the first few minutes of Season 2 which was a montage of infants being brutally murdered, and Noped right out of the show until like season 6 or so. Given the thread’s rules, I’ll just say that I have a remarkable and almost preternatural ability to guess how the progressed in the meantime, so I was able to pick up on what was happening in Season 6; maybe that’s why I don’t care too much about seeing the travelogue. Oh, in that case, in earlier seasons, at various points characters had to travel to and from King’s Landing. Typically this was handled by showing them traveling and having adventures for like 4 or 5 straight episodes, and these travelogue stories are probably most people’s fondest memories of the show. It’s certainly what led to the audience falling in love with Arya, I think, and Jaime as well. (I think Brienne was beloved the moment she appeared on-screen and has been ever since.) Then in season 7 all of a sudden whole armies were traveling these distances in a single episode. Now in season 8 everyone is covering these distances _in between scenes_ of a single episode. Worse, Cersei was pregnant **last season** , then like 6 different cross-country journeys happened one after the other (not concurrently) – several by the guy who got her pregnant – and after all that her belly was still flat as a board. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/629 "2019-05-16T12:55:26Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Normally this is exactly how I would feel as well. But for this particular show, the early seasons were essentially travel documentaries with Arya & the Hound and Brienne & Jaime. Even in later seasons with Jorah & Tyrion, for that matter. That’s the main reason I personally find the instant travel so jarring. The main point of those journeys was character development, not getting from point A to point B. The incidents that happened en route were the reason for them, not the destination. Those characters have all been developed as far as they’re going to be at this point, so there’s now point in such wanderings. At this point in the story, I don’t really care about whether they had a hard time crossing the Trident or where the Dothraki found grazing for their horses. I agree they could have done a better job giving a sense of how long travel times were, but it’s not really essential to the story and doesn’t bother me that much. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/630 "2019-05-16T13:07:20Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Then in season 7 all of a sudden whole armies were traveling these distances in a single episode. Now in season 8 everyone is covering these distances _in between scenes_ of a single episode. > > Worse, Cersei was pregnant **last season** , then like 6 different cross-country journeys happened one after the other (not concurrently) – several by the guy who got her pregnant – and after all that her belly was still flat as a board. Yeah, I don’t mind so much that we don’t see two weeks of marching. It’s quite dull and I take it from the fact that they skipped it that nothing interesting was said or done on in on the way. Fine. But where it gets weird is when the interesting stuff we _are_ following seems to take place over a different timeline. If it takes Jon a month to march from Winterfell to KL, then a month has passed for everyone. So e.g was Dany not eating for a whole month? Was Tyrion weighing up whether to tell Dany about Varys for that long? It just feels a bit weird and disjointed. Not the end of the world, but compared to the loving co-ordination of the various scenes setting up e.g. the Red Wedding, it’s slack. ---
**Author:** ![Deser2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dfb087/32.png) [@Deser2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deser2)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/631 "2019-05-16T13:37:34Z")
I think one of the problems is that people are trying to look at this as a logical decision she made. I don’t really think it is - I believe Daeny basically had a psychotic break. This was the culmination of all the various shitty things that happened to her - losing her closest friends, “losing” Jon, losing her claim to the throne (for all intents and pusposes), losing her dragon. I think it is as simple as her just snapping. The last straw is that with the city surrendering, it’s possible she won’t get her revenge on Cersei which after Missandei’s death is her driving emotion. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/632 "2019-05-16T13:45:32Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Reading a synopsis : > > After travelling to Australia on the advice of the voices in his head, Kevin Sr. learns from a prophetic chicken [a prophetic…chicken??] that a flood will come on the seventh anniversary of the Departure, leading him to believe it is his destiny to stop the flood. > > :eek:😕:dubious: I do not remember any significant foul. ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/633 "2019-05-16T13:54:16Z")
I previously said there was no examples of Dany exercising violence against an innocent target… > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > the one she fed to her dragons This is the Great Master of Meereen who got burned. Yeeeeeeeaaaaaaah okay. I’ve been looking up plot summaries because I have no memory whatever of this incident. I found the “Meereen politics” subplot duller than hell. I’ve watched every episode of the show at least twice, _except_ for the boring Meereen shit in Season 5 which struck me as insipid and contrived. Instead I rewatched Hardhome from that season like four more times. I think that was a better use of my time. But this is unfortunate for me in this discussion, because it’s pretty much a perfect counter-example to what I was saying. It’s almost perfectly parallel to the Bells in exactly the way I previously said did not exist. Well shit, it does exist. She starts out trying to respect due process, rule of law. She’s going to give a murderer a trial. When the murderer is extrajudicially killed before the trial, she executes that killer for not respecting the legal process of the city. She’s maintaining law and order, even upholding the law against people who support her. Or at least, she’s trying to. But political tensions flare up, there’s rioting (again, this seemed weak and contrived when I watched it, but it’s all show canon), and then **when things get too hard for her, she immediately resorts to feeding an innocent to the fire to try to re-establish her control**. So… yeah. She gives a few nods to the law&order route, but when she thinks that doesn’t work out properly for her, she fires the flames with complete indifference to the guilt or innocence of the specific person she lights up. Some of the Great Masters were probably involved in the uprising against her, but she had no specific reason to believe that the guy who died was one of them. He doesn’t even have a name. He’s just a faceless bystander, which means she doesn’t give a shit about him. Which is also nicely parallel to the Bells. Well okay. I was pretty definitively wrong on this one. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/634 "2019-05-16T14:04:34Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I’m using “you” in a general sense. > > There’s no inconsistency in the story on this point and I’m not fanwanking. I’m simply taking the information that the story itself gives us, which is: > > 1. One dragon’s breath melted Harrenhall > 2. A zombie dragon’s breath broke the Wall > 3. Another dragon’s breath exploded the Red Keep. You forgot: 1. Diddly squat. There have been multiple scenes with Jon or Arya ducking down a convenient alleyway, or diving behind a natural rock outcrop to seek cover from dragon-fire, and the rock in those instances doesn’t explode or melt. (Maybe Jon’s & Arya’s plot armor is an “area effect” aura.) ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/635 "2019-05-16T14:04:37Z")
[An online petition has been “signed” by more than 300,000 fans of the show, asking HBO to remake season 8 with “competent” writers.](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/16/over-250000-fans-sign-petition-to-remake-game-of-thrones-season-8.html) ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/636 "2019-05-16T14:15:42Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > She starts out trying to respect due process, rule of law. She’s going to give a murderer a trial. When the murderer is extrajudicially killed before the trial, she executes that killer for not respecting the legal process of the city. I thought this was telling, too. She executed someone without trial _for the crime of executing someone without trial_. It was played off as “law and order” but it was anything but. It was “obey me or die”. Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/637 "2019-05-16T14:18:54Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > [An online petition has been “signed” by more than 300,000 fans of the show, asking HBO to remake season 8 with “competent” writers.](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/16/over-250000-fans-sign-petition-to-remake-game-of-thrones-season-8.html) There’s a [thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=875603) about that. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/638 "2019-05-16T14:22:30Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > There’s a [thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=875603) about that. Whoops! Didn’t see that. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/639 "2019-05-16T15:08:08Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > That’s all the story tells us about the capabilities of dragon’s breath when it is used on large structures. There is nothing inherent in those depictions that is either inconsistent or contradictory. There is nothing in those depictions that says that any one of them represents a limitation on dragon’s breath. There is nothing in those depictions that says that this is what will happen every time dragon’s breath is used. Cool, so Danys can use dragon fire to rebuild the city next episode. Not only would this be fine, but no-one would even be allowed to suggest any inconsistency. Sarcasm aside, it is pretty obvious that “Dragonfire can do N things” was not a deliberate writing choice. They just thought of what shots would look cool, and failed to notice any inconsistency. > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > This is the kind of thing I couldn’t possibly give less of a wet fart about. Not because it’s fantasy, but because it’s not a travel documentary. The stuff I want to see during the limited screen time isn’t discussions of how long it takes a certain amount of soldiers to march a certain distance; nor do I want the show to compromise on awesome or affecting or otherwise interesting scenes in order to ensure that the logistical stuff is internally consistent. I’ve seen much worse than wet farts. My objection is not that there should be long scenes of soldiers marching (although personally I wouldn’t mind) but that the world suddenly seems tiny. In previous series, the main characters had some separation, and some of the strategy was about who was where and who might be taken by surprise or whatever. And previously I could suspend disbelief that these were _kingdoms_, not any more. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/640 "2019-05-16T15:58:07Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > My objection is not that there should be long scenes of soldiers marching (although personally I wouldn’t mind) but that the world suddenly seems tiny. In previous series, the main characters had some separation, and some of the strategy was about who was where and who might be taken by surprise or whatever. And previously I could suspend disbelief that these were _kingdoms_, not any more. This whole line of objection could have been so easily avoided with just a few classic film-making tropes. You know how old Hollywood films would show calendar pages flying off? Not that. But close. Two seconds of soldiers marching. One line of dialog where somebody mentions that time has passed. Cersei’s belly getting bigger. Done and dusted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869.md?page=33)