# Game of Thrones 8.05 "The Bells" 5/12/19 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 12, 2019, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869 "2019-05-12T22:06:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/661 "2019-05-16T20:52:51Z")
On a lighter note: despite defending the last episode in some ways, I will freely admit that it would have been much better with just [a little tweak to the soundtrack](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRginmFRTX8). ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/662 "2019-05-16T21:02:52Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > He’s not insulting them. He’s saying that after pestering them about his character, they finally had to explain to him that they weren’t looking to workshop the script with the actors. More specifically, not with him. Um … I think one of the main actors on a show saying the writers “don’t care” about an actor’s insights into the character he plays is a significant red flag. As someone in that reddit thread mentioned, actors can have tremendous insight into a character’s thoughts and motivations. The actor has been portraying that character for years. He / she often has a better feel for how the character would react in given situations than writers do. > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > … nor do I especially give a wet fart about anyone’s insults of the show’s creators. The insult in the video (which is less than two minutes long, by the way) is implied; it’s more of a behind-the-scenes look at how the writers handled their task. They told Coster-Waldau essentially “You’re an actor; just say the words.” This is in contrast to another massively popular (and arguably much better done) series, the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Kevin Feige made it a point several times to consider the opinions of the actors who play the characters, as well as where they think the character arc might be leading. Look, I get it; you guys don’t want anyone to be critical of the writers and showrunners. I think many people feel the show’s quality in terms of plotting and writing has declined significantly in the last couple of seasons, even as the visual effects have become more impressive. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/663 "2019-05-16T21:19:11Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > Um … I think one of the main actors on a show saying the writers “don’t care” about an actor’s insights into the character he plays is a significant red flag. As someone in that reddit thread mentioned, actors can have tremendous insight into a character’s thoughts and motivations. The actor has been portraying that character for years. He / she often has a better feel for how the character would react in given situations than writers do. His criticism might be a workplace criticism, but I’m not especially interested in it. I’m interested in discussing the work itself. > [@](#): > > Look, I get it; you guys don’t want anyone to be critical of the writers and showrunners. In my experience, sentences that begin “I get it” end by disproving the beginning. Be as critical of the writers and showrunners as you want. Criticize their dress sense, their choice in life partners, their work habits, whatever. But don’t expect me to care about it. I don’t even know their names, much less care about them. I care about the show itself. Criticisms of the show are interesting. Criticisms of the people involved are not. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/664 "2019-05-16T21:21:55Z")
It’s a different way of creating a show (or a movie or a play). Some writers want a collaborative effort with the actors. Christopher Guest, for instance, gives the actors an outline of the plot and then lets them improvise. Others want more control. Neither approach is more correct. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/665 "2019-05-16T21:29:11Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > It’s a different way of creating a show (or a movie or a play). Some writers want a collaborative effort with the actors. Christopher Guest, for instance, gives the actors an outline of the plot and then lets them improvise. Others want more control. Neither approach is more correct. Larry David also favours the improvisational approach. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/666 "2019-05-16T21:38:25Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > Is [Nikolaj Coster-Waldau’s criticism / insult](https://np.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/bp5izk/nikolaj_costerwaldau_on_dd/)regarding the writers relevant? [He wasn’t the only one.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EA7UQOYskas) ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/667 "2019-05-16T21:39:24Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > His criticism might be a workplace criticism, but I’m not especially interested in it. I’m interested in discussing the work itself. > … > > I care about the show itself. Oh, well, you got me beat, then! I’ve just been watching this show for several years because I like dragons! Golly, I’ll just hush my mouth! > [@](#): > > Criticisms of the show are interesting. Criticisms of the people involved are not. Sheesh. I (and others) have been criticizing the show, and the way the writers and showrunners have been creating the show, for some time now. We appreciated the nuanced and layered approach to the characters, and the world, and we feel that deft touch has been notably absent the last couple of seasons. Newsflash: That’s the fault of the writers and the showrunners. But if you want to just gush about how fantastic Drogon looked while he was blowing up King’s Landing … hey, have at it. I’ll even gush along with you. You know, since I like dragons and all. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/668 "2019-05-16T21:48:07Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > Look, I get it; you guys don’t want anyone to be critical of the writers and showrunners. I think many people feel the show’s quality in terms of plotting and writing has declined significantly in the last couple of seasons, even as the visual effects have become more impressive. No, you clearly don’t get it. Criticism of the show is fine. I’ve criticized it myself many times in these threads, including this one. It’s the pathetic and desperate fanboy whining that’s annoying. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/669 "2019-05-16T21:52:32Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > It’s the pathetic and desperate fanboy whining that’s annoying. Just to be clear: Is it your sense that’s what I and others in this thread are doing? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/670 "2019-05-16T22:46:18Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > But if you want to just gush about how fantastic Drogon looked while he was blowing up King’s Landing … hey, have at it. I’ll even gush along with you. If I may quote you further: Sheesh. Just to be clear: Is it your sense that’s what I and others in this thread are doing? ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/671 "2019-05-16T22:53:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If I may quote you further: > > Sheesh. Just to be clear: Is it your sense that’s what I and others in this thread are doing? To a large degree, yes. But I’ve said my piece. Enjoy the show. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/672 "2019-05-16T23:10:08Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > 😕 > > I don’t think people are saying that Arya took the pale horse as a sign of death, but that we, as the audience, could. > > Or are you saying that a show can’t use symbolism with their audience unless the in-show universe has the same symbolism? I’d say it’s sloppy (or lazy) to rely on one particular cultural/religious belief that is _not_ part of your story world, in order to get some desired emotional effect. If we were meant to take that very extended scene of Arya seeing a horse and being amazed at seeing a horse (why? there were standing buildings all around–what kept any of them from being stables that had sheltered a horse?) as having particular symbolic import, then, yes: that symbol’s meaning should have been established in-story. But that’s my opinion. I’d be interested if anyone has a counter-example of a highly-regarded story that depends on a symbol from ‘the real world’ for its impact. I mean, if you look at any fantasy story you can always simply declare that this element or that is intended to reflect some aspect of Christianity or Shinto or whatever. But with the exception of stories explicitly written as allegories (such as the Narnia books of C.S. Lewis), the finding of Christian or Shinto (etc.) symbols is usually just guesswork. In other words, was there a scene in, for example, any of the first three Star Wars movies that depended on the audience’s knowledge of Christian or Shinto (etc.) symbols for its emotional power? I’m thinking the answer is ‘no’—the power of those scenes came from what was established in-story, in accordance with the basic story archetypes employed. There was no ‘ah, a pale horse means X!’ or ‘ah, a reference to the seven plagues, which means Y!’ or ‘ah, that looks like an ema plaque, so that means Z!’ or any such specific call-backs to real-world symbols. It’s an interesting topic and I don’t claim to be an expert about it. But I do think that if people think through successful fantasy stories, they _won’t_ see a reliance on real-world symbols as engines for connecting with the audience. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/673 "2019-05-17T00:01:52Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > To a large degree, yes. > > But I’ve said my piece. Enjoy the show. Huh. I’ve not said a single thing about Drogon’s appearance, and hardly anything about the appearance of any aspect of the show. If that’s what you’re taking away from my multiple posts about the multifaceted motives of Dany and about how it’s reflected in dialogue, it clues me in as to how you analyze other things as well, so I guess it’s helpful to know that. Cool beans. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/674 "2019-05-17T02:54:59Z")
LHOD, why so touchy? Are you close personal friends with someone who works on the show or something? :eek: I don’t see anything out of bounds about the posts that seemed to set you off. > [@EllisDee](#): > > Oh, in that case, in earlier seasons, at various points characters had to travel to and from King’s Landing. Typically this was handled by showing them traveling and having adventures for like 4 or 5 straight episodes, and these travelogue stories are probably most people’s fondest memories of the show. It’s certainly what led to the audience falling in love with Arya, I think, and Jaime as well. (I think Brienne was beloved the moment she appeared on-screen and has been ever since.) > > Then in season 7 all of a sudden whole armies were traveling these distances in a single episode. Now in season 8 everyone is covering these distances _in between scenes_ of a single episode. > > Worse, Cersei was pregnant **last season** , then like 6 different cross-country journeys happened one after the other (not concurrently) – several by the guy who got her pregnant – and after all that her belly was still flat as a board. Yes, all of this. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/675 "2019-05-17T03:10:01Z")
I wonder how this series of threads will end? Not sure about this new LHoD v Sauron bloodfued subplot. I figure it’ll get resolved quickly. All the fans obviously want SenorBeef to buy it somehow. I predict an Orient Express deal, killed seven different ways in his sleeper car/castle. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/676 "2019-05-17T09:07:35Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > I’d say it’s sloppy (or lazy) to rely on one particular cultural/religious belief that is _not_ part of your story world, in order to get some desired emotional effect. I agree. Although of course readers and viewers are expected to assume that most of what applies to the real world they’re familiar with applies to the fictional world (unless stated otherwise, seasons don’t last for years, for instance). Which includes cultural elements. Wearing a golden band on your head means that you’re the king, for instance. The religion of the seven is pretty much a copy/paste of Christianism and its depiction assumes that the viewer will be familiar with this religion and that his expectations about the beliefs, religious behavior, ect…will be based on Christianism. The writers didn’t feel the need to explain the concept of sin to the audience, even though it’s of upmost importance during the High Sparrow subplot and it’s not an universal concept, for instance. So, the border between real world symbolism that the viewers can be expected to understand readily and real world symbolism whose inclusion can be considered as sloppy writing is fuzzy. For the record, I was unaware of the “pale horse” symbolism myself (presumably, it’s a concept much more familiar to a culturally Anglo-saxon audience), and even if I had been, it wouldn’t have crossed my mind that a white horse should be assumed to be a “pale horse” and that I should assume that the scene had something to do with death. It seems a far-fetched idea to me, even for a viewership familiar with the concept. I would assume a white horse to be just a white horse. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/677 "2019-05-17T10:33:38Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > Just to be clear: Is it your sense that’s what I and others in this thread are doing? No, that snark of mine was unfair and I’d like to apologize to you for that. I was more thinking of things like the petition. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/678 "2019-05-17T13:24:29Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > No, that snark of mine was unfair and I’d like to apologize to you for that. > > I was more thinking of things like the petition. Thanks very much. I’ve been a bit more contentious in this thread than I intended, and for that I apologize as well. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/679 "2019-05-17T13:51:31Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I > For the record, I was unaware of the “pale horse” symbolism myself (presumably, it’s a concept much more familiar to a culturally Anglo-saxon audience), and even if I had been, it wouldn’t have crossed my mind that a white horse should be assumed to be a “pale horse” and that I should assume that the scene had something to do with death. It seems a far-fetched idea to me, even for a viewership familiar with the concept. I would assume a white horse to be just a white horse. “Pale horse” is a Christian concept (Book of Revelations), not Anglo-Saxon. But I’m both culturally Anglo-Saxon and culturally Christian, and the symbolism never occurred to me, either. I thought it was just a white horse. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/680 "2019-05-17T14:38:32Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > “Pale horse” is a Christian concept (Book of Revelations), not Anglo-Saxon. Actually, among the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, Conquest rides a white horse, War rides a red horse, Famine rides a black horse, and Death rides a pale horse (the word in Greek means green, greenish-yellow, or ashen). The horse Arya rides is clearly white, so strictly going by Revelations it means Conquest. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869.md?page=35)