# Game of Thrones 8.05 "The Bells" 5/12/19 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 12, 2019, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869 "2019-05-12T22:06:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![HammerJoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a6a055/32.png) [@HammerJoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HammerJoe)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/681 "2019-05-17T15:04:28Z")
Something that is not sitting all with me is the of the episode with Arya. We are to believe that somehow she managed to survive that carnage when all around her are burned corpses and she is the only one standing and then a white horse just happens to be there waiting for her and she rides down the street with no other survivors that we can see??? What if she actually died and it’s just a ghost? I am hoping it wasn’t just another case of plot armor… This one would be worse than episode 3. The only thing is that i don’t see the purpose for the storyline. Her arc should be over now that Cersei is gone. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/682 "2019-05-17T15:11:17Z")
It’s plot armor, come on. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/683 "2019-05-17T15:16:21Z")
Arya’s arc has more than a little of The Count of Monte Cristo in it. SPOILERS FOR A BOOK MORE THAN A CENTURY OLD!!! What makes The Count such a phenomenal book isn’t just its slow burn or its dastardly plotting. The ultimate scene–in which The Count forgives the primary villain, in order to cut himself loose from his life of vengeance–is among the most satisfying plot twists in literature, IMO. Arya’s redemption isn’t nearly so satisfying, but c’mon, Dumas is a high freakin bar to clear. Still, her arc parallels the Count’s, I think. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/684 "2019-05-17T15:16:27Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > It’s plot armor, come on. I’m sure if Arya had been randomly burned up by the dragon, there would have been no complaints about a stupid death. The fans would have appreciated the realism and complimented the writers. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/685 "2019-05-17T15:22:11Z")
I think one of the takeaways from the battle of Winterfell episode is that the carnage shown on the screen is just the worst bits of what happened. Daenerys did not kill everyone in King’s Landing (it just looked that way), so it should not be ridiculous to believe Arya survived by being more lucky than average. The real question is, does she take the Hound’s advice to heart and stop trying to be a vengeful killing machine, or does she make an attempt on Daenerys to protect the realm? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/686 "2019-05-17T15:38:48Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I think one of the takeaways from the battle of Winterfell episode is that the carnage shown on the screen is just the worst bits of what happened. Daenerys did not kill everyone in King’s Landing (it just looked that way), so it should not be ridiculous to believe Arya survived by being more lucky than average. I’m sure thats what they will show next episode, but she was clearly zig zagging back and forth over the entire city making sure she covered the whole thing in fire. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/687 "2019-05-17T16:02:23Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > But that’s my opinion. I’d be interested if anyone has a counter-example of a highly-regarded story that depends on a symbol from ‘the real world’ for its impact. I mean, if you look at any fantasy story you can always simply declare that this element or that is intended to reflect some aspect of Christianity or Shinto or whatever. But with the exception of stories explicitly written as allegories (such as the Narnia books of C.S. Lewis), the finding of Christian or Shinto (etc.) symbols is usually just guesswork. I guess it depends on how highly regarded you consider Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. The King’s Cross chapter was explicitly a Jesus allegory (Rowling even confirms it). I’d say that there are plenty of references from out side of stories, we just don’t realize them (whether Christian, or Shakespearian, or what-have-you) because they are so ingrained in our culture so they seem normal. As **clairobscur** pointed out that a lot of the Faith of the Seven and the High Septon’s actions require some basic understanding of medieval Catholicism. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/688 "2019-05-17T16:07:56Z")
> [@HammerJoe](#): > > Something that is not sitting all with me is the of the episode with Arya. > > We are to believe that somehow she managed to survive that carnage when all around her are burned corpses and she is the only one standing and then a white horse just happens to be there waiting for her and she rides down the street with no other survivors that we can see??? > > What if she actually died and it’s just a ghost? > > I am hoping it wasn’t just another case of plot armor… This one would be worse than episode 3. > The only thing is that i don’t see the purpose for the storyline. Her arc should be over now that Cersei is gone. In the beginning of the final episode we’ll see her arriving in Winterfell, having ridden all night. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/689 "2019-05-17T16:19:19Z")
I’ve been too busy to keep up with the thread this week, so I haven’t been participating much. But I’d like to say that the quality of the discussion has been unusually high. The pro-flip side, I think, made a pretty convincing case and I feel better that this big (apparent) twist is pretty justified. I normally hate handholding in TV shows. Where the writers put in some sort of explanation of what the viewers should’ve picked up upon anyway just in case they’re not very observant. But I do think that in this case, it’s such a long, slow buildup to such an important change that it would’ve actually benefited from some handholding at the moment of the flip. A series of flashbacks showing Danerys at her worst, ending with the moment Missandei said “Dracarys” would’ve perhaps been a bit cheesy, but it could’ve been effective. Or having her hear voices - not to indicate insanity, but to give voice to her inner monologue at the moment. Or having an in-world reminder of a significant component as to why she’s making that flip - for example, if she landed near Jon, and heard the Northman chanting to install Jon as king. Something along those lines to justify her flip in the moment would’ve made the narrative smoother and more satisfying. But I don’t think at all that this was an unjustified turn at all. In fact, of all the bad shit the writers have done over the past 2 seasons, slowly removing Danerys’ support system and the moderating influence of her advisors, and making her feeling increasingly more isolated and threatened, is one thing they did really well. I think some people have a hard time with it because they like Danerys and root for her and are uncomfortable with the idea that they supported someone with tyrannical tendencies all along, so they decided the writers are terrible and just made her a villain at the end randomly for shock value. I’m not saying every one who was upset with this is like that - some people in this thread justified their feelings very well - but in terms of a lot of average viewers crying bullshit on twitter, this would describe them. In retrospect, it’s actually a clever way to tell a story. Essentially, Danerys is always pursuing a tyranical agenda. The growth of her own power is the most important thing for her. But conveniently, she came to power in a bad place full of bad people, so most of the people she was harming with her tyranny were bad guys, and so we saw her as a liberator and generally good guy. But that was essentially a happy coincidence - all the people in her way in her rise to power were worse than she was. But if they weren’t, she would’ve still pursued power at any cost, because she felt like she was rising to her destiny. We see hints of this all along, but never have to really confront it, because she’s dunking on slavers and other assholes and her advisors are good people who are moderating the worst of her impulses. But it’s pretty clear that she was essentially lucky that her path to coming to power had her beating worse people than her. Her primary goal was always her own power, with freeing slaves and all that stuff being a nice bow to wrap it with. ---
**Author:** ![nofloyd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nofloyd/32/2870_2.png) [@nofloyd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nofloyd)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/690 "2019-05-17T16:38:50Z")
“it’s such a long, slow buildup to such an important change that it would’ve actually benefited from some handholding at the moment of the flip” I think they were nearly there! We see her support system (people, dragons, troops) cut away in pieces in season 7 and 8. Then Varys worked against her. She warns Tyrion not to betray her again, no more chances … So he promptly releases Jaime. One small scene of someone telling her Jaime is gone before she gets on the dragon and I would well believe it: Tyrion keeps harping on stopping the assault when Bells ring for surrender … But Tyrion has released Jaime … What if it’s a trap/double cross … Tyrion has been plotting with his siblings all along … Dracarys. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/691 "2019-05-17T16:44:20Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > Clearly there’s a knob on the dragon’s back with settings for “Execute by frying/Melt Stone/Blow Up Stone” settings. “Dracarys” is just the start button. 😃 Huh. I’d’ve thought there’d be an app for that. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/692 "2019-05-17T16:55:29Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > “Pale horse” is a Christian concept (Book of Revelations), not Anglo-Saxon. But I’m both culturally Anglo-Saxon and culturally Christian, and the symbolism never occurred to me, either. I thought it was just a white horse. I understand that it’s a Christian concept. What I meant is that it might be more frequently refered to in the anglo-saxon world than in France, for whatever reason, since pretty much everybody here seem to be familiar with it and someone has expressed surprise that I had never encountered it before. ---
**Author:** ![eunoia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eunoia/32/97_2.png) [@eunoia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eunoia)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/693 "2019-05-17T16:59:49Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Well, they’ll have to be extremely creative now to make Danaerys into a good person. Unless we learn that she’s been warged by Bran, or replaced by a faceless man, it’s difficult to come back from burning children alive out of spite. I won’t go as far as saying “good person”. Is a “good” monarch even possible? Wouldn’t a good monarch immediately abolish the monarchy forever and fight to destroy other monarchies? Daenerys is on the record about her overarching goal of freeing the most oppressed and enslaved, she’s on the record about relying on fear if she can’t have love and on the record about knowing about all the disloyalty around her as news of Jon’s parentage is spread throughout Westeros. Perhaps we don’t have the whole story. **CarnalK** ’s post explaining how Daenerys already knew about Jon and Tyrion’s treacherous part in weakening her claim to the Iron Throne set me to wondering why viewers are focusing on **her** seeming 180-degree shift in character _during_ the battle while giving Jon a pass on straight disobeying his queen and the three Lannisters a pass on their extremely strange behaviour _before_ the battle. How does all of King’s Landing know what ringing the bell was supposed to signal? Is it the same as what we thought it meant? Something very fishy is going on and we may not have all the facts, just like we never have all the facts about real monarchies that still inexplicably exist on planet earth in 2019. There are some powerful outs still possible. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/694 "2019-05-17T17:18:51Z")
> [@eunoia](#): > > **CarnalK** ’s post explaining how Daenerys already knew about Jon and Tyrion’s treacherous part in weakening her claim to the Iron Throne set me to wondering why viewers are focusing on **her** seeming 180-degree shift in character _during_ the battle while giving Jon a pass on straight disobeying his queen and the three Lannisters a pass on their extremely strange behaviour _before_ the battle. How does all of King’s Landing know what ringing the bell was supposed to signal? Is it the same as what we thought it meant? Something very fishy is going on and we may not have all the facts, just like we never have all the facts about real monarchies that still inexplicably exist on planet earth in 2019. > > There are some powerful outs still possible. Dany didn’t give Jon an order, she asked him not to tell, begged actually. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/695 "2019-05-17T17:25:49Z")
It was an order she didn’t expect him to follow, hence begging. It was still clearly an order, and she would view it as violating an order of his queen. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/696 "2019-05-17T17:36:29Z")
Man, there is a complete disconnect between me and those here who think Dany burning the entire city made any sense based on past episodes. Again, there is some major gap between A) saying she was always a restrained tyrant and B) deciding to indiscriminately kill thousands of innocent civilians AFTER they have surrendered. This huge gap is being glossed over completely. I’ve read many ways this could be explained in the next episode, but going from past events, pretending there was a slow build to her going mad is just doesn’t make sense. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/697 "2019-05-17T17:40:03Z")
She didn’t go mad. She made a deliberate choice, after realizing that 1. She would rule Westeros no matter the cost, because she is completely invested it in as her destiny 2. She could not rule by love, by gaining the adoration or support of the Westerosi, nor marry Jon to rule jointly to gain that support and 3) a relatively peaceful conquest of King’s Landing makes it likely that, through some means, Jon would be thrust into taking the role of King - and while he isn’t interested in it, he still betrayed her by letting the word about his claim get out at all, and that it would likely, become popularly known, giving great public pressure to install Jon as king that she would then have to rule by fear. She explicitly states this. Murdering half of King’s Landing is a deliberate attempt to ensure that she rules by demonstrating absolute brutality to any opposition to her rule. Edit: She decided before the battle that this was what she would do. The moment of what appears to be a decision is actually just her basically steeling herself to actually go through with her plan. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/698 "2019-05-17T17:54:32Z")
Yes, so the argument goes that Dany decided to a Rains of Castamere on King’s Landing. And no one thought Tywin Lannister was a madman. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/699 "2019-05-17T18:06:38Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > She didn’t go mad. She made a deliberate choice, after realizing that > > 1. She would rule Westeros no matter the cost, because she is completely invested it in as her destiny > 2. She could not rule by love, by gaining the adoration or support of the Westerosi, nor marry Jon to rule jointly to gain that support > and 3) a relatively peaceful conquest of King’s Landing makes it likely that, through some means, Jon would be thrust into taking the role of King - and while he isn’t interested in it, he still betrayed her by letting the word about his claim get out at all, and that it would likely, become popularly known, giving great public pressure to install Jon as king > > that she would then have to rule by fear. She explicitly states this. Murdering half of King’s Landing is a deliberate attempt to ensure that she rules by demonstrating absolute brutality to any opposition to her rule. > > Edit: She decided before the battle that this was what she would do. The moment of what appears to be a decision is actually just her basically steeling herself to actually go through with her plan. Isn’t deciding to kill a million people instead of one pretty crazy? ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/700 "2019-05-17T18:16:35Z")
> [@nate](#): > > Man, there is a complete disconnect between me and those here who think Dany burning the entire city made any sense based on past episodes. Again, there is some major gap between A) saying she was always a restrained tyrant and B) deciding to indiscriminately kill thousands of innocent civilians AFTER they have surrendered. This huge gap is being glossed over completely. I’ve read many ways this could be explained in the next episode, but going from past events, pretending there was a slow build to her going mad is just doesn’t make sense. Stannis: “Hundreds of thousands.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869.md?page=36)