# Game of Thrones 8.05 "The Bells" 5/12/19 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 12, 2019, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869 "2019-05-12T22:06:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/101 "2019-05-13T05:43:16Z")
When Jaime walked into the chamber and sees Cersei … … man, I really wanted that to be Arya wearing his face, about to assassinate the queen. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/102 "2019-05-13T05:46:32Z")
You people don’t seriously believe Jaime and Cersei are dead, do you? Really? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/103 "2019-05-13T05:49:03Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Well, that was depressing. ☹ > > I guess Ramsay Bolton had it right about the happy ending. Would have been a damn better ruler than Mrs Drago, Mater Dracones. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/104 "2019-05-13T05:57:28Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Take the black??What black? What would a new Nights Watch be watching for exactly? Gotta have a place for the lords to send their unwanted sons. ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/105 "2019-05-13T06:05:47Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You people don’t seriously believe Jaime and Cersei are dead, do you? > > Really? You really think they’re NOT dead? ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/106 "2019-05-13T06:23:47Z")
> [@magnusblitz](#): > > You really think they’re NOT dead? They’re hanging out with Stannis. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/107 "2019-05-13T06:32:56Z")
They are deader than doornails. Bereft of life, they rest in peace. They are ex-Lannisters. \(Smacks Cercei’s corpse) Wakey Wakey, Mrs. Lannister! I have a nice cuttlefish for you! \ “Now that’s what I call an ex-Lannister.” If they find one of them groaning in the rubble, it will really cheapen what was actually a fairly touching and appropriate end to their lives. They both got their wish to die in the arms of the one they loved. But Cercei deserved far worse. But you know what? Isn’t Daeneris even more evil? I mean, Cercei didn’t really care about the people, but Daeneris was actually killing innocent people with murderous intent. Hundreds of thousands of them. And since that’s likely unacceptable to Jon Snow and Tyrion and Ser Davos and pretty much the entirety of Westeros, she has a real problem. She can rule by fear and become the thing she supposedly came to destroy, or she can… what? Kill herself? Just leave on her dragon? I suspect a more tragic end. But before we think she was sweetness and light before, don’t forget that she was perfectly happy to be married to a guy who pretty much made his living doing exactly what the Dothraki were doing in King’s Landing - raping and pillaging. And taking slaves. The Dothraki are not a model of liberal morality, and Daeneris was totally okay with that. But one of the best things about this episode were the visuals. I mean come on, when everyone was standing around the gate looking nervous and hearing dragon sounds over the city, wasn’t it just amazing when the city walls blew _out_ into the Golden Company? That was pretty shocking, and really well done. The scenes of Drogon strafing King’s Landing were just amazing. The animators really did a great job this season giving you a sense of the sheer mass and inertia of a dragon - something that’s often missing in CGI. Some of those scenes were truly terrifying and got through the chaos that must have existed in that city. CleganeBowl was some fan service, but man, what a setting for the fight - on crumbing stairs with flames from a dragon lighting up the background. It was very Mount Doom-ish. And it makes sense that the Hound couldn’t kill FrankenMountain, because I’m guessing you’d need Valyrian steel or maybe DragonGlass, if Clyburn used the same magic to resurrect him that the Night King used. But of course, fire also works. I thought it was a clever way to also make the Hound and his brother die in a fire. Sure, it was fan service and pretty by-the-numbers, but really well done. As a pure spectacle, the episode was amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/108 "2019-05-13T06:39:39Z")
Hey Sam, Bran and Sansa…well fucking done (Slow clap) gooooood jawwwwwb. Especially if I hear next ep that Bran watched the whole thing, and in THAT ep wargs into Drogan. ---
**Author:** ![gupwalla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@gupwalla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gupwalla)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/109 "2019-05-13T06:56:46Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You people don’t seriously believe Jaime and Cersei are dead, do you? > > Really? “La fatal pietra sovra me si chiuse.” Exactly as dead as that. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/110 "2019-05-13T07:08:09Z")
They are dead—or sure better be. It would definitely be really cheap to bring either of them back. My son texted me his thoughts about the episode, but I think they are too interwoven with book knowledge to post. I can report that he did say it was the second best episode of the season after 2, but that this was a low bar. > [@DrCube](#): > > Stick around and watch The Wire, Deadwood Rome, and The Sopranos if you haven’t already. _Chernobyl_! Second episode premieres tomorrow night. The first was _super_ intense. > [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Bronn…we’ve decided to give you Kings Landing. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/111 "2019-05-13T07:52:50Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > My son texted me his thoughts about the episode, but I think they are too interwoven with book knowledge to post. Now he has provided me a safe, redacted version: > [@](#): > > So that was a lot of things. Certainly the second best episode of the season so far after 2, but that’s not a high bar, and there were certainly some massive problems: > > 1. Dany burning everyone. Letting her soldiers rape and pillage is one thing. Destroying the Red Keep and Cersei is one thing. These are the actions of vengeful conquerors throughout history, and Dany seems like she falls in line with these. But burning everyone in the city? That makes no sense. She just snapped, apparently. The buildup from the previous seasons shows her becoming vengeful and hardened, not insane. It’s stupid how Jon not having sex with her made her go “well since I’m not loved by the people or by my lover and have lost the ones I loved, I guess I’ll just kill everyone. I spent seasons upon seasons freeing slaves and liberating people, but yknow what? Fuck that shit”. > > 2. The black and white morals. So Tyrion went from “I saved you. I saved all of you. I should have let Stannis kill you all. I wish I had enough poison for everyone in King’s Landing” to “no Dany whatabout the GENEVA CONVENTION? You can’t let people die in a war! Nevermind that this is clearly modern writers projecting modern morals on a medieval show!” And instead of just letting the city surrender what would be reasonable? Sieging the city? Storming the gates? Having Arya assassinate Cersei? Fly straight to Cersei and destroy the Red Keep, terrifying the rest of the city into submission, which was her goal to rule by fear? Nah, burn literally everyone alive. That makes sense. Gotta either kill no one or kill everyone, right? > > 3. So I guess Jaime’s character arc was a circle, huh. What a fucking waste of time, jfc. Also “I don’t care about the innocents of King’s Landing”, the fuck? You charged at Dany suicidally to try to end the war, you betrayed your oath and killed the Mad King to save the city. The fuck is this nonsense. > > 4. Varys being stupid as usual these days. The Varys of old would not have blabbed so openly about treason. So much for the master of whisperers. > > 5. Oh yeah didn’t Varys literally save his life? What a bitch move to rat on him like that, Tyrion. > > 6. Euron Greyjoy. Just ugh. So he happens to wash up at the EXACT same hidden shore that Jaime was at, dueled and crippled man for no reason in the corniest way possible, and lost. Then bragged about how “I killed Jaime Lannister”. Dude you killed a fucking dragon, I think that’s more of an accomplishment. What a shit character. On that note… > > 7. The retconning of episodes 3 and 4 were quite amusing. So we saw literally nobody but the main characters alive by the end of episode 3, yet now she has hundreds if not thousands of unsullied and Dothraki left, lol okay. Plus now those super weapon ballistas actually somewhat make sense and are inaccurate and slow as fuck, made sense they were ineffective and got destroyed. Rhaegal shouldn’t be dead… > > 8. So after all this buildup, it’s just gonna go the nihilist route? Better than the cliche Hollywood ending I suppose, but it doesn’t feel earned or very well foreshadowed. If they were gonna go the nihilist route they should have had Dany’s descent done better or have the Night King win. > > That’s all for now but there’s more, oh boy there’s more. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/112 "2019-05-13T07:57:10Z")
I’m happy that Danaerys turned badly. I’ve never could see her as the good guy, since she burned alive Drogo’s assassin in season 1. I hoped during all these years that she would turn into a tyran, not just because I didn’t like her, but because it made for a much more interesting ending. I was expecting a more progressive change, however. And not something as extreme as that. At first, I thought that such a sudden decision to “burn them all” wasn’t believable. Then I thought that she was the daughter of her father. Crazy under the surface, and able to suddenly start a murderous rampage if put under pressure. I don’t know what to think of it, but I still find this ending satisfying. Regarding Cersei and Jaime, at the very end I was expecting a mercy killing that would have satisfied the prophecy. I assume they’re actually dead. Especially since there’s only one episode left, so they won’t have time to give a second, different resolution to their story. Noted like many others that characters, dragons, armies, ballistas, etc… can be one moment devastatingly efficient and the next episode totally useless depending on what is required by the scenario. Doesn’t bother me too much anymore at this point, though. Varys (contrarily to some, I had no issue with his death, contrarily to that of Littlefinger. Seemed in character and satisfying to me) said that Jon Snow would make a good king, but he appears to me even more useless than usual. I can’t see him ruling Westeros. Like most apparently I expect now that Arya will murder Danaerys (or maybe she’ll commit suicide? Seems a posibility because she isn’t evil at heart, and despite her “then it will be fear” statement, I think she won’t forgive herself for what she has done). What will happen to Jon? I would guess the night watch (might be another Night King in one thousand years, who knows?) or turning widling. It seems to me that now Sansa has a good shot at the throne (and she’s basically the last woman standing, since I take as granted that Danaerys is a goner), and a new marriage with Tyrion wouldn’t surprise me. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/113 "2019-05-13T08:10:23Z")
Great episode if I hadn’t seen the early seasons of GoT, but the tropes that continue to be rolled out just take me out of it: 1. Varys being dumbed down since the source material ran out. 2. BIG ONE: Dany’s quick change from being really paranoid to just deciding to burn down the entire city 3. BIGGEST ONE: Euron showing up on the beach that Jamie wound up on, AND of course they fight to the death, AND of course Jamie received a mortal wound, AND of course, well it turns out it’s not quite fatal, so he crawls to a sword while Euron watches and ends up killing Euron with it. And then gets up like nothing happened and walks up tons of stairs to magically run into Cersei. 4. Dany never burning the Red Keep castle. 5. No shots of Dany after she started burning the city. I guess Jamie DID just pump and dump Briene. I don’t know why Arya waited until they were in the heart of the Keep for her to listen to Hound’s advice. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/114 "2019-05-13T08:21:58Z")
By the way, what is the significance of the “pale horse”? It vaguely rings a bell, but nothing more… ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/115 "2019-05-13T08:24:36Z")
> [@nate](#): > > I guess Jamie DID just pump and dump Briene. I know interpret his fling with Brienne as an attempt to get over his obsession with Cersei. He tried, failed, and came back to Cersei. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/116 "2019-05-13T08:31:59Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > By the way, what is the significance of the “pale horse”? It vaguely rings a bell, but nothing more… “Death rides a pale horse…” ---
**Author:** ![by-tor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/by-tor/32/266_2.png) [@by-tor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/by-tor)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/117 "2019-05-13T08:41:05Z")
Arya Stark: The [del]Force [/del] Plot Armour is strong with this one. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/118 "2019-05-13T09:16:42Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I know interpret his fling with Brienne as an attempt to get over his obsession with Cersei. He tried, failed, and came back to Cersei. Somehow I couldn’t finish my post. I expected that Jaime was going back to King’s Landing to put Cersei out of her misery. I had expected during the whole series that Jaime would kill Cersei for the exact same reasons he had killed the mad king. But now I think that indeed this would have made no sense. He loved her all his life, and she has been pretty much the only thing he really cared about. So, him having such a massive change of heart and deciding to kill her, for any reason whatsoever, or switching to another woman, wouldn’t have been plausible. It makes much more sense this way. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/119 "2019-05-13T09:19:53Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > “Death rides a pale horse…” I was unaware of this sentence, I had to google it. I thought the pale horse was some reference to something in GoT. Well, that’s an interesting image, then. Do you think that this was the meaning of this horse? They lingered a lot on it, as it had some peculiar sense, and I wondered why. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869/120 "2019-05-13T09:21:36Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > She didn’t kill the servants. She had to kill some of them to get their faces. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-05-the-bells-5-12-19-show-discussion/833869.md?page=7)