# Game of Thrones, A Golden Crown, 5/22/11 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 22, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824 "2011-05-22T22:54:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/201 "2011-05-25T12:21:22Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > …He wasn’t crappy or out of practice…he was over armored for that kind of fight. He was wearing heavy plate, with a large heavy shield and a large heavy sword suited to fighting other guys in plate armor (preferably on horseback). In the show, Bronn turns down the use of a heavy ass shield, is shown in light leather armor, and is using a much lighter hand and a half sword…and in that sort of fight that would be the better choice. Put them on horseback and it would be a different story. Basically, Bronn get’s the knight to swing (and miss) until the guy is pretty much exhausted and has slowed down, then he cuts him several times to further drain him before finally hamstringing him and then finishing him off. > > -XT I’m sure the unfortunate knight was good at fighting mountain bandits from horseback–with a few comrades by his side & a minions for the close work. He wasn’t suited to Bronn’s kind of fighting. Which consisted of various skills he’d learned in his checkered career–maybe even a touch of the Art we’ve seen Arya learning. The Vale folk seem a bit distant from the fancy tournament fighters Down South & light-on-their feet fencers across The Narrow Sea. They just defended their hilly homes & tried to avoid getting on the wrong side of their Nutso Young Lord & his Nutso Regent. (Just from observations: Bronn doesn’t look as though he’s had a prosperous past & the crowd in the throne room was hardly glittering & witty.) ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/202 "2011-05-25T12:28:04Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I don’t think it is the fact that dark-haired \*families \*can’t have blonde kids. It’s that the Baratheons always have dark-haired kids and Lannisters always have blond-haired kids. It’s specific, I’m WAGging, to these particular bloodlines, which is why Ned had to discover it from a book. > > In the real world, this wouldn’t be enough to prove that there’s something fishy about parentage. A man with X number of dark-haired bastards – perfectly plausible for him to have three legitimate blond kids. Assuming your calculation of 12.5 percent is accurate – 12.5 percent is not all that implausible. 12.5% isn’t all that implausible, you’re right. That takes as given that Robert is packing that recessive gene. So, how do we know whether or not he is? Well, apart from checking DNA we can’t, unless we look at further statistics. Let’s look at bastards that came from non-brunette women. I’m going to assume that all of the mothers are, since that seems to be his type, ironically enough. So, the odds of Robert having a recessive gene can be looked at by the bastards: 1 bastard = 50% 2 bastard = 25% 3 bastard = 12.5% 4 bastard = 6.25% 5 bastard = 3.125% 6 bastard = 1.56% 7 bastard = 0.78% 8 bastard = 0.39% 9 bastard = 0.19% 10 bastard = 0.09% 11 bastard = 0.04% And, actually, you’ll need three less bastards to get to whatever number you consider significant, since you could count his “real” kids as part of it as well. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/203 "2011-05-25T12:46:09Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > The sellsword Bronn might have broken the rules of courtly or poetically defined honour in the Vale but why should he care as long as he didn’t break the rules of the ritual he was engaged in? The only thing he absolutely had to do, was honour the rules of the engagement. He didn’t complicate matters more than necessary, and so he had an advantage from the start. You’re way overthinking it. The whole point is that one guy did what you’re “supposed” to and the other did what it took to win. Nobody anywhere is saying or even implying that Bronn broke the rules. Think of it this way. Your favorite baseball player is up to bat. He’s one hit away from setting a record. And, so, the pitcher walks him because he doesn’t want to be the one that gave him the record. Is it against the rules? No. Is it a shitty thing to do? Yes. Will the audience like it? No. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Umm, there’s rather such a thing as “over armored” as you see what Hollywood rarely shows is the blows getting turned by all that armor. And, a shield is a huge advantage. The dancing guy with the light armor would get tired first, from having his blows bounce off. Not to mention, there’s no reason for the heavy armored knight to chase the light guy. Just lean on your sword and watch him dance. Bronn didn’t swing until he had a clear shot. One guy was doing all the swinging in the fight, and it wasn’t Bronn. Yes, and just lean on your sword. Everyone knows armor is totally invulnerable. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/204 "2011-05-25T13:12:45Z")
Yeah, I’d definitely want to party with Tyrion, if I had my druthers. As to Ned figuring out that the King’s children were not his… Ned’s a warrior, not Gregor Mendel. He’s not doing complicated statistical analysis. All he knows is that, given the info available, the King’s kids are always dark-haired. The three royal kids aren’t, strongly suggesting someone else is the dad. Even if the Hand of the King hasn’t figured out that Jaime is the dad, he knows or has reason to strongly suspect that they’re bastards, and that in and of itself is (or historically was, in Middle Ages Europe) high treason, punishable by death for the Queen. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/205 "2011-05-25T13:16:24Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > 12.5% isn’t all that implausible, you’re right. That takes as given that Robert is packing that recessive gene. So, how do we know whether or not he is? Well, apart from checking DNA we can’t, unless we look at further statistics. I think you know the difference between statistical probability and examining a single case. So long as it’s not outright impossible, there’s not much in the way of hard conclusions about genetic parentage that you can draw from merely looking at hair color Regardless of all this, I think it’s safe to say that neither Ned nor anyone else in Westeros is aware of genetics or how recessive genes work. They probably see trends and tendencies for the hair color of children to match the hair color of their parents, but there will be a lot of exceptions. That’s why the “the blood runs strong” thing is significant to Ned. Still, Ned’s not thinking in terms of statistical probabilities – it’s more like a mystical revelation to him. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/206 "2011-05-25T14:16:37Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > 12.5% isn’t all that implausible, you’re right. That takes as given that Robert is packing that recessive gene. So, how do we know whether or not he is? Well, apart from checking DNA we can’t, unless we look at further statistics. But Ned read through something like six generations of his family tree - if there was a recessive gene, shouldn’t it have popped up at least one other time in the past 100+ years? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/207 "2011-05-25T14:22:33Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > But Ned read through something like six generations of his family tree - if there was a recessive gene, shouldn’t it have popped up at least one other time in the past 100+ years? Depends on the wives involved, really. Had they all been brunette, maybe not. The most likely place it could have slipped in would have been, say, Robert’s mother. Assuming she was a non-Baretheon, if she was carrying an unexpressed recessive gene then Robert would have a 50/50 chance. Of course, he clearly didn’t have it unless he happened to keep passing that on over and over, which takes you to my handy ‘not a chance in hell’ chart. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/208 "2011-05-25T14:24:09Z")
As I said before, statistical probabilities are one thing in genetics – specific cases are another. Unless a sequence of hair colors is _impossible_, then you can’t really draw any definitive conclusion about the underlying genes merely by observing the phenotype. If this were a real-life issue, I’d ask the question whether the book Ned was reading reliably recorded _every_ branch of the family tree, legitimate or not. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/209 "2011-05-25T14:33:52Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > As I said before, statistical probabilities are one thing in genetics – specific cases are another. Unless a sequence of hair colors is _impossible_, then you can’t really draw any definitive conclusion about the underlying genes merely by observing the phenotype. Hey, if you’re saying that statistics are bullshit in any specific case because there’s always a chance that you could be in the .001% I am not going to disagree with you. But that still doesn’t change the basic numbers. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/210 "2011-05-25T14:56:01Z")
Isn’t it pointless to discuss our science of genetics relative to a fictional planet where summers and winters last for years and dragons (and presumably some other creatures) are real? I mean, the simplest thing is to assume that in Robert’s family, the children are _always_ black-haired, however that can be explained by genetics. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/211 "2011-05-25T14:56:12Z")
Re: the Bronn fight. I watched the episode again and it’s pretty clear that Bronn is using his superior speed, agility and peripheral vision to draw Ser Chumpsalot in. Bronn leads him through the narrow rows of columns causing him to get hung up several times. He throws things at him like a candle fixture and even one of the bystanders. I would also submit that Ser Chumpsalot and the rest of the court probably suck at real combat anyway. Their queen is a crazy chick breast feeding an 8 year old retard. I have to think the rest of the court isn’t filled with the best and the brightest of the Realm either. Really it fits with Rob’s tirade as well. The knights and lords are probably like most in the kingdoms and have grown lazy and complacent since they haven’t had a real fight in years. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/212 "2011-05-25T15:01:25Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > That doesn’t make him likable. He’s rude, crude, uncivil, foul-mouthed, bitter and nasty. Which is why he’s a favorite of mine. I like him because he’s a smart, reasonable man in a world of violent, unreasonable idiots. Of course he’s bitter. Totally understandable. And totally likable. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/213 "2011-05-25T15:08:11Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Isn’t it pointless to discuss our science of genetics relative to a fictional planet where summers and winters last for years and dragons (and presumably some other creatures) are real? I mean, the simplest thing is to assume that in Robert’s family, the children are _always_ black-haired, however that can be explained by genetics. I personally think that it’s silly to abandon real world logic (genetics) in favor of something else (a wizard did it) unless there’s a really good reason. I mean, really, is there a reason not to? Otherwise we might as well just assume that Bran was a good climber because he was bitten by a radioactive spider and that he survived his fall because there was an invisible mattress on the ground. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/214 "2011-05-25T15:12:01Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Isn’t it pointless to discuss our science of genetics relative to a fictional planet where summers and winters last for years and dragons (and presumably some other creatures) are real? I mean, the simplest thing is to assume that in Robert’s family, the children are _always_ black-haired, however that can be explained by genetics. I think that’s the point I’m trying to make in posts 148, 158, and 205. This isn’t really a matter of genetics, because (1) the characters don’t know anything about genetics, (2) genetics doesn’t necessarily work in the same way in a fantasy world that it works in real life, and (3) there may be factors other than genetics in play, such as magic. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/215 "2011-05-25T15:13:48Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I think that’s the point I’m trying to make in posts 148, 158, and 205. This isn’t really a matter of genetics, because (1) the characters don’t know anything about genetics, (2) genetics doesn’t necessarily work in the same way in a fantasy world that it works in real life, and (3) there may be factors other than genetics in play, such as magic. And (4) George R.R. Martin may have no idea how real-world genetics actually work so they WON’T work that way in Westeros. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/216 "2011-05-25T15:25:34Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I think that’s the point I’m trying to make in posts 148, 158, and 205. This isn’t really a matter of genetics, because (1) the characters don’t know anything about genetics, (2) genetics doesn’t necessarily work in the same way in a fantasy world that it works in real life, and (3) there may be factors other than genetics in play, such as magic. Seriously! Still, if there is one thing the Dope is known for, it’s pedants. The seed is strong, people! The last Hand died finding this out. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/217 "2011-05-25T15:33:41Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I think that’s the point I’m trying to make in posts 148, 158, and 205. This isn’t really a matter of genetics, because (1) the characters don’t know anything about genetics, (2) genetics doesn’t necessarily work in the same way in a fantasy world that it works in real life, and (3) there may be factors other than genetics in play, such as magic. That’s just silly. The evidence for it is absolutely zero. Maybe in this world the farmers don’t plant seeds, instead the just scream at their fields until the crops sprout up! We don’t know how it works there! -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/218 "2011-05-25T15:34:38Z")
Too late for the edit window: Let us now discuss how it is physically impossible for Dany to remove a dragon egg from hot coals and not burn herself. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/219 "2011-05-25T15:40:03Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Really it fits with Rob’s tirade as well. The knights and lords are probably like most in the kingdoms and have grown lazy and complacent since they haven’t had a real fight in years. Yeah, it fits. I am reminded of the “summer children” rants in the forbidden medium. Besides, it’s easier for the audience and the actors if the fight is not “realistically” presented but way overacted. Even someone who has no idea how a sword fight should look like will see that Vardis isn’t Bronn’s equal by far. It’s not an animated manual, after all. [/Calming myself down] added: Biggirl, I think we can’t discuss it without referring to information by Martin, which would lead to spoilers. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/220 "2011-05-25T15:43:01Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > That’s just silly. The evidence for it is absolutely zero. What, decades-long summers and winters and the existence of dragons doesn’t imply that this is a world where our scientific knowledge isn’t entirely applicable? A world where messages are delivered by ravens? Where there are walking undead? And plus – “The blood runs strong.” – Sounds pretty non-scientific to me. It sounds exactly like the kind of thing that people would have said in real life before anyone understood genetics. They would use such an idea to make erroneous assumptions and draw erroneous conclusions. In our own pre-scientific history, people would look at certain kinds of evidence and draw mystical conclusions about the way the world worked – alchemy, astrology, prophecy. In real life, such conclusions have been proven wrong. Here we have a fantasy world in which people may draw mystical conclusions about the way their world works, but they’re true. This is more like a world where things work the way that unknowledgeable people thought things worked rather than a world where things work the way that we now know things work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824.md?page=12)