# Game of Thrones, A Golden Crown, 5/22/11 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 22, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824 "2011-05-22T22:54:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/241 "2011-05-25T21:21:35Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > That was just a comment on the silly genetics argument. I figured we could move on to another silly argument. > > By the way, what was it that Dany said? “That would not have killed a real dragon.” or something like that. Fire does not kill a dragon. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I assume that was why she insisted on witnessing her brother’s crowning; to prove to herself that he was not a dragon (unlike her). BTW, have we been given the backstory on the guy who’s been advising her, and who received a pardon-by-post this week? Jorah Mormont, one of Ned Starks bannermen who got caught selling slaves and sentenced to death, he fled to other continent and attached himself to Dany and Viserys as a sworn knight. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/242 "2011-05-25T21:23:22Z")
Wasn’t it back in the first episode that Ned mentioned someone he had ousted for slave trading? ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/243 "2011-05-25T21:23:45Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I assume that was why she insisted on witnessing her brother’s crowning; to prove to herself that he was not a dragon (unlike her). BTW, have we been given the backstory on the guy who’s been advising her, and who received a pardon-by-post this week? He told Dany that Stark wants to execute him for selling slaves. He sold slaves because he had an expensive wife, who is now with another man. Pledging allegiance with the Targaryans so that he could go back without being executed. ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/244 "2011-05-25T21:23:59Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Too late for the edit window: Let us now discuss how it is physically impossible for Dany to remove a dragon egg from hot coals and not burn herself. Not really. There are people in our actual real-world life who self-hypnotize and walk on hot coals without being burnt. She looks pretty tranced out while she’s staring at the egg. It’s entirely possible that she simply believes she cannot be hurt by fire and therefore wasn’t. Whether that would be strong enough to let her survive what happened to Viserys, I’ll leave up to you and future episodes, I suppose. > [@Acsenray](#): > > As I said before, statistical probabilities are one thing in genetics – specific cases are another. Unless a sequence of hair colors is _impossible_, then you can’t really draw any definitive conclusion about the underlying genes merely by observing the phenotype. > > If this were a real-life issue, I’d ask the question whether the book Ned was reading reliably recorded _every_ branch of the family tree, legitimate or not. Actually, that’s not true. As someone whose hobby/vocation for the last 15 years has been breeding many generations of small animals with a wide variety of coat colors, I can say that certain genetics CAN be determined by a single test breeding, depending on the pedigree. If blonde is a recessive, then that’s all Cersei has to give. Robert’s black hair is clearly dominant, so either he doesn’t have a blonde gene to offer (homozygous for black hair) or at least one of his children would have come out blonde among all those bastards with blonde ladies. Sure, it’s only probability, but when you’re talking about recessives, it’s not hard to force them to the surface. Blonde clearly being recessive (at least here) then Jaime and Cercei have nothing but blonde genes to offer. If Robert was carrying a blonde gene, then the probability of blonde children is 50-50 on a Punnett square. It’s hard to believe that none of those kids would be black-haired, when all his known bastards are. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/245 "2011-05-25T21:28:59Z")
Hey, I saw the Mythbusters on hot coal walking. You cannot pick up a coal in your hand, hold it and not get burned but you can certainly walk on them without getting burned. It’s got nothing to do with whether or not you believe you will be burned. Yay me! I started another silly argument! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/246 "2011-05-25T21:35:26Z")
> [@Feyrat](#): > > Not really. There are people in our actual real-world life who self-hypnotize and walk on hot coals without being burnt. Anyone can be taught to do that trick and it has nothing to do with hypnosis. It’s q trick, though, that requires you to stay in motion and not let your feet stay in contact with that hot coal. Picking up something out of a fire and holding onto it is entirely different. I think it’s pretty clear that this is meant to be supernatural. > [@](#): > > Blonde clearly being recessive (at least here) then Jaime and Cercei have nothing but blonde genes to offer. If Robert was carrying a blonde gene, then the probability of blonde children is 50-50 on a Punnett square. It’s hard to believe that none of those kids would be black-haired, when all his known bastards are. No geneticist would accept thus as definitive proof that Robert had no lurking recessive blond gene. Those probabilities will show up as tendencies over time in a population but you can’t work backwards from a single person’s offspring and looking solely at phenotypes say definitively that you haven’t fallen upon that one slim chance that probability allows for. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/247 "2011-05-25T21:40:34Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > He told Dany that Stark wants to execute him for selling slaves. He sold slaves because he had an expensive wife, who is now with another man. Pledging allegiance with the Targaryans so that he could go back without being executed. We also already know from the council session in “The Wolf and the Lion” that he is relaying information about the Targaryens to Westeros, namely to the spider. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It seems to me that you’re an expert in this style of swordfighting, which counterintuitively makes you a terrible audience for this style of swordfighting. The casting directors could have cast people who were expert swordfighters and secondarily actors, or they could have cast people who were expert actors and secondarily swordfighters. I’m very glad they went with the latter approach. For nearly all viewers, the swordfighting on screen is adequate, since we don’t know any better; we would, however, be pretty good at spotting mediocre acting. Imagine a bunch of English tv actors playing in a new HBO series about the struggles and triumph of an NBA team in the playoffs. They’d better do this in the best tradition of Monty Python, or … No, don’t take this comparison too serious, it’s lopsided, I know, and you pointed out the critical meta-factor already: the level of previous knowledge present within the audience. Anyway, as long as the fights do their job as symbolic representations, it works for me. I do love the threatre, after all\*. * * * - Which is unfair to say, btw, I have seen more than a view stage actors who are competent fencers – they need to be because no post production polishes their efforts. > [@Biggirl](#): > > Yay me! I started another silly argument! I’m not sure they thought this through well when they decided to give Dany such resilience to fire, but then ..; oh well, we’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/248 "2011-05-25T21:42:50Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > Imagine a bunch of English tv actors playing in a new HBO series about the struggles and triumph of an NBA team in the playoffs. They’d better do this in the best tradition of Monty Python, or … No, don’t take this comparison too serious, it’s lopsided, I know, and you pointed out the critical meta-factor already: the level of previous knowledge present within the audience. Anyway, as long as the fights do their job as symbolic representations, it works for me. I do love the threatre, after all\*. > > * * * > > - Which is unfair to say, btw, I have seen more than a view stage actors who are competent fencers – they need to be because no post production polishes their efforts. Sure, because of Shakespeare, there’s a long tradition of excellent actors becoming excellent fencers. But do those skills really transfer to the style of fighting in this movie? I was under the impression that that’s like asking Jackie Chan to be a convincing boxer. ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/249 "2011-05-25T22:05:48Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > No geneticist would accept thus as definitive proof that Robert had no lurking recessive blond gene. Those probabilities will show up as tendencies over time in a population but you can’t work backwards from a single person’s offspring and looking solely at phenotypes say definitively that you haven’t fallen upon that one slim chance that probability allows for. Not definitive, no. However, if I had a Russian Blue rat that I bred to a Siamese rat and not a single baby out of 16 showed up as Siamese, then I would conclude it very unlikely that the Russian Blue carried Siamese. If someone else bred that same pair together and got a litter of ALL Siamese, I would suspect they were lying and had swapped the males out. Yes, yes, hijack, but still. The probability that Robert produces NO blondes when bred with 16 other women, and produces ALL blondes with Cersei is pretty long odds. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/250 "2011-05-25T22:14:07Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Sure, because of Shakespeare, there’s a long tradition of excellent actors becoming excellent fencers. But do those skills really transfer to the style of fighting in this movie? I was under the impression that that’s like asking Jackie Chan to be a convincing boxer. You’re right. I had started with the foil as a boy and moved to the épée later and everything ingrained in me was wrong with the sword: the footwork, posture, the thinking in rules .. Frustrating. I’ve heard other fencers say the same. Any actor who is primarily used to fencing might have a hard time at first as well; but, IIRC, many stage actors learn to use the rapier too, and while this weapon is a close relative of the épée, it’s heavier and the blade is not flexible, so you don’t fight like: parry, immediately followed by a riposte. You rather fight in motions that have defensive and offensive value simultaneously. And while the later rapiers were mostly thrust weapons, the earlier ones were more used to make cutting moves - and then we are almost back in the age of the sword. Any stage actor who knows how to use such an older rapier, should represent a sword fighter much better than a modern sport fencer. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/251 "2011-05-25T22:34:43Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > Any actor who is primarily used to fencing might have a hard time at first as well; but, IIRC, many stage actors learn to use the rapier too, and while this weapon is a close relative of the épée, it’s heavier and the blade is not flexible, so you don’t fight like: parry, immediately followed by a riposte. You rather fight in motions that have defensive and offensive value simultaneously. And while the later rapiers were mostly thrust weapons, the earlier ones were more used to make cutting moves - and then we are almost back in the age of the sword. Any stage actor who knows how to use such an older rapier, should represent a sword fighter much better than a modern sport fencer. At this point, though, we’re back to a fairly small pool of actors from whom to draw. I’d rather them not consider this as a required trait for the major characters (Ned, Jaime, etc.), which means I’m okay with them fighting in a less-than-accurate fashion. They could cast the bit parts (like Bronn’s hapless victim) from excellent old-rapier-fighters without worrying too much about acting abilities. But then you’d have the situation of having the bit characters look like better fighters than the main characters who are supposed to be the realm’s finest fighters. Given the reality of making a good show, in which good acting is more important than good swordplay, I’m not sure how else they could have handled it. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/252 "2011-05-25T23:03:53Z")
Agreed. Though I’ve seen a great\* stage actor once (damn, the name escapes me at the moment) who would have been a perfect Ned. And how this guy could fence! But I am sure, he wouldn’t have had the drawing power of a household name like Sean Bean. So, yeah, can’t argue with your pov. * * * - by this, I mean convincing, not renowned. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/253 "2011-05-25T23:08:09Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > Agreed. Though I’ve seen a great stage actor once (damn, the name escapes me at the moment) who would have been a perfect Ned. And how this guy could fence! But I am sure, he wouldn’t have had the drawing power of a household name like Sean Bean. So, yeah, can’t argue with your pov. Plus, Sean Bean came to the auditions already dressed in character. The director was all, “Wow, how did you know the costume?” and Sean said, “Hey, this was in my closet. It’s all I wear these days.” ---
**Author:** ![jellyblue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e480ec/32.png) [@jellyblue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jellyblue)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/254 "2011-05-26T01:33:36Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Uh, that’s not something that can be answered here. I wasn’t looking for a spoiler. Just wondering. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/255 "2011-05-26T03:27:24Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Plus, Sean Bean came to the auditions already dressed in character. The director was all, “Wow, how did you know the costume?” and Sean said, “Hey, this was in my closet. It’s all I wear these days.” True story of Bean’s gag on the director, or your joke? ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/256 "2011-05-26T04:00:32Z")
I can’t believe all the genetics arguments (well, OK, I can, but yeesh, enough already). All Ned did was look at Robert’s bastards, all the Baratheons in the book, and Robert’s kids, and he sang to himself, “[Three] of these things are not like the others.” Forget everything you know about genetics, and it’s pretty persuasive evidence. I’m liking this show more and more with each episode. And we’re only six in of at least two seasons. w00t! ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/257 "2011-05-26T10:11:46Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > True story of Bean’s gag on the director, or your joke? My joke. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/258 "2011-05-26T12:51:07Z")
> [@quixotic78](#): > > I can’t believe all the genetics arguments (well, OK, I can, but yeesh, enough already). All Ned did was look at Robert’s bastards, all the Baratheons in the book, and Robert’s kids, and he sang to himself, “[Three] of these things are not like the others.” Forget everything you know about genetics, and it’s pretty persuasive evidence. And then you add in that Jon Arryn found out everything that Ned found out and then gets killed. The hair color is only one piece of evidence–the fact that someone was killed for finding it out is the icing on the cake. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/259 "2011-05-26T13:13:08Z")
Remember, the evidence doesn’t have to be strong enough to convince a court of law - it just has to be strong enough to convince Robert. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824/260 "2011-05-26T13:27:14Z")
All this ‘seed is strong’ stuff is reminding me of Jerry Springer’s paternity shows. Specifically, one where the prospective father knew the kid wasn’t his because “I can’t have boy babies. I don’t have the X.” John just doesn’t have the blond. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-a-golden-crown-5-22-11/582824.md?page=14)