# Game of Thrones, Baelor, 6/12/11 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 12, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243 "2011-06-12T20:19:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/261 "2011-06-17T02:37:00Z")
I’m sure his bastard son would disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/262 "2011-06-17T02:48:43Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I’m sure his bastard son would disagree. Or his wife. Many fans too. Was he really honorable, or did he just use that as an excuse to avoid doing what needed to be done? What’s the more honorable thing, to refuse to do anything distasteful, no matter the consequences, or get your hands dirty, but prevent a war? I don’t think everybody is gray though. Just more than most stories. Joffrey is pretty black. Jon’s pretty white once he stops whining. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/263 "2011-06-17T02:55:49Z")
Real Joffreys do exist. There really are people who are all black. Most of the “bad” characters are not Joffrey bad, though. All white is harder to find in real life, but really light gray exists, which describes Ned and Jon (and maybe Arya). ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/264 "2011-06-17T02:58:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Real Joffreys do exist. There really are people who are all black. Most of the “bad” characters are not Joffrey bad, though. > > All white is harder to find in real life, but really light gray exists, which describes Ned and Jon (and maybe Arya). Agreed, just saying that “all the characters are grey” isn’t technically correct, imo. Some might argue that Joffrey’s upbringing is at fault more than him personally though. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/265 "2011-06-17T03:39:26Z")
I hated the character of Ned in the books and the show, pompous idiot. When he had his empty head cut off in the book, I knew I had found a series worth reading. The best reason to watch the show, and read the books, is Tyrion. What a great character. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/266 "2011-06-17T04:24:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > …All white is harder to find in real life, but really light gray exists, which describes Ned and Jon (and maybe Arya). And another character who, as before, shall remain nameless here. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/267 "2011-06-17T05:26:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Real Joffreys do exist. There really are people who are all black. Most of the “bad” characters are not Joffrey bad, though. > > All white is harder to find in real life, but really light gray exists, which describes Ned and Jon (and maybe Arya). Maybe **not** Arya. For someone so upset about the butcher boy’s senseless death, she stabbed that stable boy readily enough… ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/268 "2011-06-17T05:29:58Z")
Stabbing someone who’s planning to take you to what you have good reason to believe is probably your death is far from comparable with having someone murdered for sparring with your fiancee’s sister. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/269 "2011-06-17T05:34:32Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > Stabbing someone who’s planning to take you to what you have good reason to believe is probably your death is far from comparable with having someone murdered for sparring with your fiancee’s sister. Not to say he wouldn’t have done it, but I don’t think Joffrey actually ordered the kid’s death. ---
**Author:** ![kombatminipig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5ac83/32.png) [@kombatminipig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kombatminipig)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/270 "2011-06-17T08:51:39Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Not to say he wouldn’t have done it, but I don’t think Joffrey actually ordered the kid’s death. No, I think his mother did, in order to eradicate as many witnesses as possible to the boy’s ass-whooping. > [@Max\_Torque](#): > > I agree that Ned wouldn’t have been well served by ranting about Joffrey’s genetics at Baelor’s. Still, were I in his place, I would have at least made my first statement before my confession along the lines of, “I have been assured by the crown that confessing to my crimes will earn the mercy of His Grace, and that despite my crimes I will be allowed to live and serve the realm in the Night’s Watch. Was my understanding correct, Your Grace?” Not that looking like a double-dealing fraud in public would necessarily prevent Joffrey “I’m King, I Can Do Whatever I Want” Baratheon from beheading you, but at least you’d cement his reputation as an unstable tyrannical maniac in the public mind. My fanwank is that Ned was told something in the lines of “You will read this statement word by word and say nothing else. Failure to comply will lead to your daughters being used as playthings by the the Gold Cloaks. Also, we’ll find some petty reason to go to war against your son and wipe your petty fiefdom from the map. So be a good boy now, and it will turn out nicely.” Also, I am adoring this series to death. Thank god for HBO. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/271 "2011-06-17T10:51:44Z")
Ned is proof that you can be too stupid to live. Being noble does not mean making bad decision after bad decision for the sake of the children or honor or whatever else he used as an excuse to make the calls that cost him his head. His character makes the argument that being honorable means death. To all of those who will say that he wasn’t stupid and he had no choice in the path he chose, I say he can continue to make his honorable decisions from the grave. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/272 "2011-06-17T11:25:29Z")
Continue watching for Tyron. He is an interesting character and the actor who portrays him is great (also, watch “The Station Agent”). As a “book reader” I can spoil only this: the second and third season will be great. The last book was a bit crappy, though. Martin has to put a lot of effort in the next one. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/273 "2011-06-17T11:54:02Z")
I’d argue it’s worth continuing to watch because, at the very least, the story was crafted such that you did care about a character. It doesn’t seem unreasonable that, though you aren’t at the moment particularly bothered about the fates of other characters, it’s fair to say that the possibility and ability to create or use such a character remains. If nothing else, this series is based on the first book of four. There’s no guarantee that all those people who presumably found compelling characters to follow in the other books share the same tastes as yourself, but I would argue that it’s at least worth watching the final episode. And maybe giving the beginning of the next series a go. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/274 "2011-06-17T13:01:07Z")
This is just not Sean Bean’s (or Ned’s) week: [http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20503024,00.html?hpt=hp\_t2](http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20503024,00.html?hpt=hp_t2) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/275 "2011-06-17T14:53:09Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > This is just not Sean Bean’s (or Ned’s) week: [http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20503024,00.html?hpt=hp\_t2](http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20503024,00.html?hpt=hp_t2) Not his week? He got injured defending a Playboy model from a boor wielding a broken beer mug. That’s positively heroic! He’s smiling himself to sleep I bet. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/276 "2011-06-17T14:59:20Z")
Correction: _his girlfriend_, a Playboy model. Incidentally, did you non-book readers notice what type of sword Mormont gave Jon Snow? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/277 "2011-06-17T15:02:48Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Not his week? He got injured defending a Playboy model from a boor wielding a broken beer mug. That’s positively heroic! He’s smiling himself to sleep I bet. A Bean fan on another board muttered something about “my cat is older than his date.” But remained an admirer. (Yes, I can tell when somebody online is muttering. Or exclaiming. Or whining.) Concerning those “Eddard is an idiot” remarks. Yeah, he should have just watched those episodes that we saw. He’d know what we know & make better decisions! (Or read those chapters. Here’s one book reader who knew what was coming but was still _strongly_ affected by seeing him die.) ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/278 "2011-06-17T15:08:49Z")
A lot of other people didn’t have that benefit and didn’t act stupidly. Renly was smart enough to get the fuck outta dodge when he saw how things were shaping up. Varys could have described exactly what was going to happen to Ned from the start. ---
**Author:** ![kombatminipig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5ac83/32.png) [@kombatminipig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kombatminipig)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/279 "2011-06-17T15:11:23Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Correction: _his girlfriend_, a Playboy model. > > Incidentally, did you non-book readers notice what type of sword Mormont gave Jon Snow? Besides being big ass, no? Please tell, if it doesn’t spoil anything =) ---
**Author:** ![Seamack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/46a35a/32.png) [@Seamack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seamack)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/280 "2011-06-17T15:12:52Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Correction: _his girlfriend_, a Playboy model. > > Incidentally, did you non-book readers notice what type of sword Mormont gave Jon Snow? Didn’t he mention it as he handed it over? We’re talking about the ‘parentage’ (or lack thereof) of the blade aren’t we? I’ve read the books and as HBO are doing such a fine adaptation, I’m finding it hard to distinguish what I’ve seen and what I’ve read from my memory. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243.md?page=15)