# Game of Thrones, Baelor, 6/12/11 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 12, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243 "2011-06-12T20:19:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/281 "2011-06-17T15:14:45Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Not his week? He got injured defending a Playboy model from a \*\*boor \*\*wielding a broken beer mug. That’s positively heroic! He’s smiling himself to sleep I bet. I thought that said he defended her from a **boar** , and was like does the man live in a fantasy wilderness in real life!? > [@Alessan](#): > > Correction: _his girlfriend_, a Playboy model. > > Incidentally, did you non-book readers notice what type of sword Mormont gave Jon Snow? He said what it was, but I didn’t hear it very well. Some type of fancy steel. I didn’t get the reference. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/282 "2011-06-17T15:21:30Z")
No, I’m not talking about the composition of the steel. I meant the length of the blade and the length of the hilt (especially the latter). D&D player and SCA types will know what I’m talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/283 "2011-06-17T15:22:59Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > A lot of other people didn’t have that benefit and didn’t act stupidly. Renly was smart enough to get the fuck outta dodge when he saw how things were shaping up. Varys could have described exactly what was going to happen to Ned from the start. Let’s say it gets played out Renly’s way. Ned now has 100 extra swords and Joffrey as hostage. The gold cloaks still side with the money, Joffrey dies (maybe), and Renly and his hundred men die too. So, in the end, Renly’s brilliant plan ends up with 102 extra corpses and either Joffrey or Tommen on the throne. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/284 "2011-06-17T15:23:10Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > Some type of fancy steel. I didn’t get the reference. Valyrian steal, but that’s not the point being asked about - it’s the type of sword. (I don’t actually remember him mentioning that part in the show…) ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/285 "2011-06-17T15:24:27Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > Valyrian steal, but that’s not the point being asked about - it’s the type of sword. (I don’t actually remember him mentioning that part in the show…) Me neither. Valyrian steel, used to have a bear on the pommel, now it has a wolf. Was supposed to be Jorah’s, but he at least had enough honor to leave it behind when he escaped Westeros. Pretty sure that was about it. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/286 "2011-06-17T15:25:35Z")
Oh man, now i remember and that does seem like a silly thing to leave out. It was a bastard sword. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/287 "2011-06-17T15:26:38Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Correction: _his girlfriend_, a Playboy model. Oh, it’s his week. Every week is his week. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/288 "2011-06-17T15:31:17Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Concerning those “Eddard is an idiot” remarks. Yeah, he should have just watched those episodes that we saw. He’d know what we know & make better decisions! (Or read those chapters. Here’s one book reader who knew what was coming but was still _strongly_ affected by seeing him die.) Seems you’re taking things in this thread pretty personally, Bridget. There are plenty of decisions that Ned made that on their own and with only the information he had were questionable to pretty terrible. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/289 "2011-06-17T15:45:54Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Ned is proof that you can be too stupid to live. Being noble does not mean making bad decision after bad decision for the sake of the children or honor or whatever else he used as an excuse to make the calls that cost him his head. > > His character makes the argument that being honorable means death. To all of those who will say that he wasn’t stupid and he had no choice in the path he chose, I say he can continue to make his honorable decisions from the grave. And I question whether he was really all that moral. He is shown as adhering to a certain code, that’s for sure. But that’s not an automatic ticket to morality. For example, one of the moral standards Ned adheres to is “the man who passes judgment is the man who swings the sword” (or something like that). Well, that’s all good for him, but it’s not an objectively moral standard. In our world, when we describe someone as acting as “judge, jury, and executioner,” we don’t say it admiringly. Moreover, Ned was very selective in his willingness to act honorably or to act for the good or to act morally or however you want to describe it. Did you see how he meekly stood in the corner of the room as Cat told Jon Snow – clearly grieving for his injured brother – to get the fuck out of the room? It’s strongly hinted that this dynamic has been going on for the entirety of Jon Snow’s life. Snow is an innocent, yet Ned let Cat mistreat Jon from childhood, standing meekly in the corner. Ned is very concerned that his sons will grow up to be tough. He forces Bran to watch as he beheads the deserter. Where are his concerns about his daughters? He is content to leave them to the mercies of the world. He doesn’t attempt to teach _them_ about the realities of life. He will prepare and train and equip his sons to face hardship as men, but his daughters will grow up with fairy tales until the point that they are married off to madmen, brutes, psychopaths, cretins, morons, and dogs. His daughters will dream of princes riding winged unicorns until their wedding days when they will suddenly be thrust into a world – a brutal, unmerciful world – without any preparation, without any tools to cope, having been taught only the domestic arts, with no idea about the reality of life with men. (Arya will be different, but that’s in spite of her parents, not because of them.) Years ago Ned was forced to make a choice – to take up arms against the Mad King or to be a victim, like his father, brother, and sister. Ned, a highborn scion of a noble house, was in a position in which he could do something, and perhaps a position in which he _had_ to do something. He chose to take up arms against the king, but he really didn’t face up to the real consequences of his choice. He declined to take a place in the capital to help ensure that the regime he helped put in place would operate well. He skedaddled off to the boondocks, where he sought to be left alone, with his family and one of the largest armies on the continent surrounding him. He reluctantly let himself be drawn back when the country was again in trouble, but refused to open his eyes and see the world around him, how it worked, and how he might succeed. The upshot was that he let himself become a bumbling pawn, a Jacques Clouseau nosing about the capital letting the whole world know his weaknesses, while taking no concrete steps to protect himself or the people who counted on him. He refused to learn anything from people who had acquired the skills to survive in those circumstances. He refused to take anyone’s advice. He refused to even consider how to realistically achieve the best outcomes. Ned was no model to be admired. He was no paragon whose presence in the story was critical for us to be invested in the events. I liked Ned, I admired him in many ways, I cared about his welfare. I was startled and saddened by his graceless end and brutal death. But Ned was a self-deluded fool. He died a fool, leaving his family and children to figure out how to protect themselves. By killing him, the story is telling us that this is a world in which fools behaving foolishly don’t time after time stumble upon success – like Inspector Clouseau. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/290 "2011-06-17T15:54:44Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > He forces Bran to watch as he beheads the deserter. Jon Snow forced Bran to watch. > [@](#): > > Where are his concerns about his daughters? You mean like hiring a sword trainer? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/291 "2011-06-17T16:01:58Z")
I’m afraid my failure to see the hilarity in the last scene of this week’s episode is colored by things I knew about Eddard & others that have not been shown on TV. Therefore, I won’t go into detail here. Really, though. “Unicorns”? Where were they mentioned? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/292 "2011-06-17T16:03:51Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Jon Snow forced Bran to watch. Jon Snow did it because he knew that that’s what Ned wanted. Ned was ultimately in charge there. > [@](#): > > You mean like hiring a sword trainer? That seemed more like a indulgent concession to a goofy childhood whim than the result of actual consideration of what Arya’s future was going to be like. I didn’t say that Ned doesn’t love his daughters, because he obviously does. He wants to give them things that they want, whether it’s a prince or a swordmaster. But he still doesn’t ever really show them what they should expect in life, the way he does for Bran. Oh, and speaking of Bran, this is an age in which children drop like flies from accidents, illnesses, and other misfortunes. It’s clear that neither Ned nor Cat ever treated Bran’s habitual climbing as a serious threat to his life. Cat’s admonishment was so gentle as to be nonexistent. If nothing else, they could have provided him with an older companion so at least he wouldn’t have been by himself when he was climbing things. Where was Bran’s climbing-master? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/293 "2011-06-17T16:08:28Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > I’m afraid my failure to see the hilarity in the last scene of this week’s episode is colored by things I knew about Eddard & others that have not been shown on TV. Therefore, I won’t go into detail here. Has anyone said it was hilarious? I missed that. My whole point is that it is a logical progression for the story, that it holds together, that it has integrity as a narrative, and that as far as the dramatic arc is concerned, the fact that it happened makes the story a serious one instead of a mere fantasy. I have always said that there’s no reason that genre fiction couldn’t be serious literature. Ned’s death is a point in which this narrative has taken a step in that direction. > [@](#): > > Really, though. “Unicorns”? Where were they mentioned? What are you referring to? ---
**Author:** ![Seamack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/46a35a/32.png) [@Seamack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seamack)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/294 "2011-06-17T16:12:37Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > AIn our world, when we describe someone as acting as “judge, jury, and executioner,” we don’t say it admiringly. The deserter knew his life was forfeit once he abandoned the wall. I would argue that Ned was only acting as executioner (and not judge and jury too). He wanted all his sons to witness the act (I’m presuming it wasn’t a common occurence) in order that they would understand the gravity of making a decision about taking someones life. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/295 "2011-06-17T16:14:40Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Jon Snow did it because he knew that that’s what Ned wanted. Ned was ultimately in charge there. Sure. But Ned hardly “forced” Bran to watch. Being present was message enough. > [@](#): > > That seemed more like a indulgent concession to a goofy childhood whim than the result of actual consideration of what Arya’s future was going to be like. What other future \*should \*she have, at that point in the story? This is how EVERY female in this genre is treated. Getting a sword master for her is massive break from the norm. That’s why they’ve gone to great lengths to hide this fact from the rest of the world by referring to him as her “dance partner”. The rest of your points I agree with - Ned is a pretty bad decision maker. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/296 "2011-06-17T16:26:38Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Sure. But Ned hardly “forced” Bran to watch. Being present was message enough. Well, we’ll just have to disagree on this point. Ned knew Bran was there and I think he presumably knew that Jon would ensure that Bran wouldn’t avert his eyes. “Father’s watching,” Jon said. Ned engineered the circumstances to reasonably ensure that Bran would watch and see everything. That’s my point. > [@](#): > > What other future \*should \*she have, at that point in the story? He should be more direct and ensure that they know that in this world, you, as a girl, as a daughter of a noble house, are essentially not considered a person. No decision will be made with your own desires or well-being in mind. At best, you will be treated as a very important housecat whose primary purpose will be to pop out a series of some nobleman’s whelps, and very likely die in childbirth during one of them. If you’re not that lucky, you will be seriously mistreated by cruel people who are stronger than you. If you ever wander around on your own, it’s not unlikely that you’ll be beaten or raped, and that’s if your own husband doesn’t already subject you to that kind of treatment. We, your own parents, are very likely going to sell you off to some inbred cretin to serve some political interest that will likely help us slaughter a whole bunch of people. So, you know what, you might as well be standing right beside Bran, Jon, and Robb when I chop this guy’s head off because just as likely as not, your lives are going to be just as brutal and horrific as Bran’s, if not more, since you’ll be less equipped to defend yourselves. He should ensure that they don’t have unrealistic ideas of what it’s like to be married off to a prince. He should make sure that they understand that princes are very often cruel dogs who will fuck every woman that they can get their hands on and very well might kill everyone you love. 'Cause that’s what happened to me when I was younger. I don’t see any evidence that Sansa or Arya have had their eyes opened in this way by their parents. They’re both having to discover it all on their own. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/297 "2011-06-17T16:39:38Z")
If you think Ned’s actions towards Jon Snow have been cruel, I can’t possibly see how treating the girls like that would be kind. > [@](#): > > I don’t see any evidence that Sansa or Arya have had their eyes opened in this way by their parents. Arya: Can I be lord of a whole fast? Ned: [chuckles dismissively] You will marry a high lord and rule his castle and your sons shall be knights and princes and lords. Arya: No, that’s not me… [runs off to play with Barbies or something] Ned doesn’t do a thing to dissuade her or comfort her with anything but the truth that the only important thing around her will be men, and the men she produces. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/298 "2011-06-17T17:01:26Z")
> [@Estilicon](#): > > Continue watching for Tyron. He is an interesting character and the actor who portrays him is great (also, watch “The Station Agent”). > > As a “book reader” I can spoil only this: the second and third season will be great. The last book was a bit crappy, though. Martin has to put a lot of effort in the next one. The last book suffered because of the way the action was divided; imho it was a much poorer outcome than simply dividing his overly long manuscript in half would have been. I think there’s about a 5% chance HBO would do that to seasons 4-5due to the actors, so those seasons will probably both incorporate A Feast of Crows **and** Dance of Dragons. ---
**Author:** ![fusoya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecccb3/32.png) [@fusoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fusoya)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/299 "2011-06-18T17:32:50Z")
The Word of God already stated that Feast of Crows and Dance of Dragons would be mixed back together when filmed, and would create 2 seasons. Storm of Swords is also going to be split into 2 seasons. So really, book 6 has another 5 years to get finished before the series catches up! ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/300 "2011-06-18T18:00:48Z")
> [@fusoya](#): > > The Word of God already stated that Feast of Crows and Dance of Dragons would be mixed back together when filmed, and would create 2 seasons. Storm of Swords is also going to be split into 2 seasons. So really, book 6 has another 5 years to get finished before the series catches up! I think this is just the expressed wishes of the author (and the fans, really). It’s not set in stone. I’d prefer it too. Over here in the UK Storm of Swords was already seperated into two books, anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243.md?page=16)