# Game of Thrones, Baelor, 6/12/11 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 12, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243 "2011-06-12T20:19:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/81 "2011-06-13T19:33:35Z")
Must’ve been, because I missed it. Who’s King Joffrey’s new Hand? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/82 "2011-06-13T19:33:58Z")
As a book reader, I’m just using the information seen on TV: Cersei was appalled by what her demon spawn did. Not that the cruelty & treachery bother her–but it makes Civil War quite unavoidable. Earlier, we saw her try to tell him that the North was impossible to control. Now she’s got all the North & their allies Hell Bent on revenge. (And what are Stannis & Renly up to?) ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/83 "2011-06-13T19:36:06Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t think it’s a spoiler to say that Cersei didn’t know that Joffrey was going to pull that stunt. Soon she will bring in a new Hand to help her control Joffrey. > [@unwashed\_brain](#): > > If true, that’s a spoiler. 🙂 > [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > No, they already named the New Hand in the final scene. It was easy to miss. Yeah, I thought they named Cersei’s brother, Joffrey’s uncle/father, Jamie to become the Hand at the end of last week’s episode. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/84 "2011-06-13T19:38:54Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Yeah, I thought they named Cersei’s brother, Joffrey’s uncle/father, Jamie to become the Hand at the end of last week’s episode. Alas, we now know that Jaime will be unavailable. On the show, _Cersei_ doesn’t yet. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/85 "2011-06-13T19:40:43Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Must’ve been, because I missed it. Who’s King Joffrey’s new Hand? > [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Yeah, I thought they named Cersei’s brother, Joffrey’s uncle/father, Jamie to become the Hand at the end of last week’s episode. I believe that in the prior episode, in the scene in which Sansa begged for Ned’s life, Joffrey appointed Jamie Lannister as the head of the Kingsguard and Tywin Lannister as the new Hand of the King. ---
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/86 "2011-06-13T19:42:05Z")
At the end of the episode “you win or you Die” I thought Cersie said Jamie was the new hand. Obviously Jamie is somewhat indisposed at the moment, but Cersie wouldn’t know that yet. What did they say at the end of this episode? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/87 "2011-06-13T19:44:00Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Must’ve been, because I missed it. Who’s King Joffrey’s new Hand? It won’t happen until next season, but I’ll say it a spoiler box. If you don’t want to know yet, don’t look. **Moderator’s edit: Removed spoiler.** Keep book spoilers out of this thread, please. As the OP says and as is the custom, this thread is only for the HBO series. - Gukumatz ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/88 "2011-06-13T19:54:09Z")
I just checked. At the end of “The Pointy End,” it is announced that Jamie Lannister succeeds Barristan Selmy as lord commander of the Kingsguard and Tywin Lannister succeeds Eddard Stark as hand of the king. The latter is announced right before Barristan Selmy is called before the king and is forced into retirement. Suggesting that there soon will be a need to replace Tywin as Hand is a spoiler. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/89 "2011-06-13T20:03:57Z")
Here’s a question: Cersei is the regent pending Joffrey’s coming into his majority. The whole point of a regent is that the actual monarch is not considered yet able to fully exercise his duties. In essence, the regent is the final authority. So why wouldn’t Cersei be able to countermand Joffrey’s execution order if she had wanted to? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/90 "2011-06-13T20:07:29Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Here’s a question: Cersei is the regent pending Joffrey’s coming into his majority. The whole point of a regent is that the actual monarch is not considered yet able to fully exercise his duties. In essence, the regent is the final authority. So why wouldn’t Cersei be able to countermand Joffrey’s execution order if she had wanted to? I’m pretty sure that Joffrey is king without any sort of oversight. Ned was supposed to have oversight until the heir came into majority, based upon Robert’s wishes, but that was all thrown out the window, when Ned was going to claim that Joffery was not the heir. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/91 "2011-06-13T20:11:48Z")
Yeah, Joffrey is King now, no regent. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/92 "2011-06-13T20:13:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It won’t happen until next season, but I’ll say it a spoiler box. If you don’t want to know yet, don’t look. Then don’t say it. After a rough start, these threads have been quite good about focusing only on the show. Why throw that away? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/93 "2011-06-13T20:15:40Z")
The delicious irony of that is that Cersei herself told Ned that Joffrey was king _immediately_, so that Robert’s last order naming Ned as regent and protector of the realm was a nullity. And now her beloved firstborn is, by exercising the authority she insisted was fully vested in him, pitching the realm into a civil war. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/94 "2011-06-13T20:20:00Z")
Right, what Omar Little said. Edit: Elendil’s Heir too Cersei was only regent until the coronation, which was to be in less than 2 weeks from the time Ned was arrested. We didn’t see the coronation presumably because there was other stuff going on, but Joffrey was full King at the point of Ned’s execution. It’s one of the larger tactical errors Cersei has made so far since no one is in control of her sadist son anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/95 "2011-06-13T20:39:58Z")
Has the coronation actually taken place? I hadn’t realized that. Anyway it was a powerful ending even though I knew it was coming. And the scene between Aemon and Jon was great as well and helped to frame Ned’s choices and his tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/96 "2011-06-13T20:43:23Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Cersei was only regent until the coronation, which was to be in less than 2 weeks from the time Ned was arrested. You might be right but all I know is that in “You Win or You Die,” Ned is told by a courier or whatever that “King Joffrey and the Queen Regent request your presence before the throne.” I can’t recall anything that indicated that Cersei’s regency ended with the coronation. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/97 "2011-06-13T20:53:58Z")
I kept confusing references to “the Twins” as a geographical feature with the Lannister twins, Cersei and Jamie. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/98 "2011-06-13T21:14:56Z")
> [@Time\_Stranger](#): > > I’m still not sure I understand how Robb captured Jamie. I understand he split his forces, but how was Jamie caught? > [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > Jamie was taken unawares, and even then he killed 10 men before they subdued him. Jamie wasn’t just taken unawares, his entire army was. There was a great battle and the Starks were overwhelmingly victorious due to the power of surprise. Jamie was captured, probably by explicit order from Robb, and he cut down 10 men on the field of battle who were attempting to subdue him before being taken. > [@Acsenray](#): > > I believe that in the prior episode, in the scene in which Sansa begged for Ned’s life, Joffrey appointed Jamie Lannister as the head of the Kingsguard and Tywin Lannister as the new Hand of the King. Yeah, Tywin is supposed to be the Hand. Not sure how that’ll work out if he’s leading the Lannisters and Hill men in a Civil War though, I suspect he won’t be riding to King’s Landing any time soon. I wonder where Yoren will be taking Arya. Back to Winterfell? Up to the Wall? To the field to find Cat and Robb? Will Sansa be killed, will she flee King’s Landing? Will she swallow her anger, believe Ned’s forced confession and continue to serve Joffrey? ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/99 "2011-06-13T21:23:13Z")
So, who all knows that Joffrey isn’t Robert’s son? Varys knows. Does Littlefinger know? Catelyn? I’ve forgotten who Ned told, or who knew without being told. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243/100 "2011-06-13T21:27:43Z")
Didn’t Littlefinger give Ned some of the clues himself? Even if that wasn’t the case, I thought Ned told Littlefinger during the period they were conspiring to prevent Joffrey from succeeding to the throne. I don’t recall Catelyn being informed. I suspect Ned’s letter to Stannis revealed the secret. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-baelor-6-12-11/585243.md?page=6)