# Game of Thrones, Fire and Blood, 6/19/11 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 19, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068 "2011-06-19T21:57:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/261 "2011-06-27T08:46:24Z")
Dunno about the rest of you, but I found Drogo _very_ interesting-- to look at. And am disappointing he didn’t surprise wiener us before his sad, sad demise. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/262 "2011-06-27T13:57:59Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Dunno about the rest of you, but I found Drogo _very_ interesting-- to look at. And am disappointing he didn’t surprise wiener us before his sad, sad demise. I don’t think they use Twitter. Though I wouldn’t put it past the Maesters and their ravens… ---
**Author:** ![Keweenaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Keweenaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keweenaw)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/263 "2011-06-27T14:17:51Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Eddard Stark and Khal Drogo had their merits but they were not (by any stretch) the most interesting characters. That may certainly be true. And just from reading the first book and watching the series, I agree. However, I think the acting performances of Sean Bean and Jason Momoa really elevated the series. I hope that something HBO can continue with subsequent casting choices. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/264 "2011-06-27T16:18:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not really. I know it’s fashionable to like the dwarf, but I find his bad, fake accent irritating, and his character completely unbelievable. That is really pretty insulting. I think Tyrion’s a great character, and have since I read the books ten years ago, long before widespread internet discussion. Fashion has nothing to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/265 "2011-06-27T22:08:57Z")
His bad, fake accent didn’t bother you ten years ago? ---
**Author:** ![Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a9a28c/32.png) [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oslo_Ostragoth)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/266 "2011-06-27T22:32:51Z")
I’m not sure where to put these: [Game of Thrones Muppets](http://www.buzzfeed.com/robotmutant/game-of-thrones-muppets-3dcs) [Arrested Westeros](http://www.uproxx.com/webculture/2011/06/arrested-development-meets-game-of-thrones-with-arrested-westeros/#page/1) ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/267 "2011-06-27T22:33:52Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > His bad, fake accent didn’t bother you ten years ago? That is a true statement. ---
**Author:** ![Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a9a28c/32.png) [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oslo_Ostragoth)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/268 "2011-06-27T22:36:00Z")
p.s. I bought the first book today\*. Yikes - 800-some pages to plow through. Gonna take a while… \*from a real B&M bookstore - I feel sorry for them. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/269 "2011-06-27T22:48:35Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > That is a true statement. Just to clarify, since I may have been too subtle, **John Mace** ’s complaint was with Dinklage’s performance, and it is indeed fashionable to fawn all over Dinklage’s performance. Neither of which has anything to do with your enjoyment of the character while reading the books ten years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a9a28c/32.png) [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oslo_Ostragoth)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/270 "2011-06-27T23:51:36Z")
Also, [Westerama](http://westerama.tumblr.com/) and [Deadwood Thrones](http://deadwoodthrones.tumblr.com/). ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/271 "2011-06-28T15:00:14Z")
Also funny - a typical HBO writer’s _Game of Thrones_ thought process : [http://regretfulmorning.com/2011/06/game-of-thrones/?utm\_source=scribol&utm\_medium=referral&utm\_campaign=scribol](http://regretfulmorning.com/2011/06/game-of-thrones/?utm_source=scribol&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=scribol) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/272 "2011-06-30T13:47:01Z")
Something just occurred to me – what if the reason that Ned never tells anybody about Jon Snow’s parentage is that Ned is not actually his father? It seems to me that the whole show has been pretty elusive regarding Lyanna’s death. What if Lyanna was Jon Snow’s mother? That would explain Jon’s strong Stark family resemblance? Perhaps Lyanna had a moment of weakness and succumbed to her mutual passion with Robert before they were officially married? That would explain why Lyanna might have been hidden away from Robert. Or perhaps Rhaegar Targaryen fathered a child on her? Maybe her death was death in childbirth? So Ned brings Jon back to Winterfell, determined to be responsible for his sister’s son. But he will not besmirch her honour, so he claims Jon as his own bastard. That would totally be within Ned’s character. Also, if Jon’s father was a Targaryen and people knew about it, then Robert would probably not have spared him. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/273 "2011-06-30T14:19:22Z")
Have there been any hints that Roberts passion for Lyanna was shared? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/274 "2011-06-30T14:33:29Z")
True, I was just assuming that. Even if we take Robert out of the question, she might have had another lover. Petyr Baelish? He seems to be everywhere at once. The more I think about it, though, the more dramatic it would be if it was Rhaegar. Either he abducted and raped her or she went willingly with him and they became lovers. The show doesn’t say much about Rhaegar. We know his father was a monster, but I’m not sure it’s safe to assume that Rhaegar was as well. The whole Cersei-Jamie issue makes me think that Martin very well might go in the direction of making Lyanna and Rhaegar genuine lovers. Is it in my imagination, or does it seem that Robert doesn’t have the full story on Lyanna’s death? ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/275 "2011-06-30T14:37:30Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > True, I was just assuming that. > > Even if we take Robert out of the question, she might have had another lover. Petyr Baelish? He seems to be everywhere at once. > > The more I think about it, though, the more dramatic it would be if it was Rhaegar. Either he abducted and raped her or she went willingly with him and they became lovers. > > The show doesn’t say much about Rhaegar. We know his father was a monster, but I’m not sure it’s safe to assume that Rhaegar was as well. The whole Cersei-Jamie issue makes me think that Martin very well might go in the direction of making Lyanna and Rhaegar genuine lovers. > > Is it in my imagination, or does it seem that Robert doesn’t have the full story on Lyanna’s death? How much do you want us to actually talk about this? I will add that none of the topics you have brought up have actually been answered anywhere, but they have been the topic of fan discussion for years. I think it’s an interesting line of discussion, but based on what you see in the show only…there isn’t much there. I will agree that it is not safe to assume that Rhaegar was a monster. He might have been, but from what we have seen the that family was clearly not all mad bastards. In fact most of the Targaryens we have met and/or heard of have been quite good people. Only two of them have been evil, assuming you think Danny isn’t evil or mad, and I don’t. We don’t know much about Rhaegar one way or the other though (again, based on the show only, no spoilers I promise). ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/276 "2011-06-30T14:38:54Z")
I CAN tell you that there’s a lot of speculation in the fan community about Jon’s mother being Lyanna and his father being…someone else. However, that’s all it is, is speculation, since Martin hasn’t addressed Jon’s parentage explicitly aside from the assumption that he’s Ned’s bastard in any of the books so far. That’s the only reason it’s not a spoiler, because no one (other than Martin) knows if it’s true or just a WAG by fans. And aside from the fact that this isn’t an actual spoiler, or even actual book-knowledge, it’s probably a question better asked in the non-spoiler background thread than here, given the rules these episode threads have been under since they began. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/277 "2011-06-30T14:40:49Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Something just occurred to me – what if the reason that Ned never tells anybody about Jon Snow’s parentage is that Ned is not actually his father? > > It seems to me that the whole show has been pretty elusive regarding Lyanna’s death. What if Lyanna was Jon Snow’s mother? That would explain Jon’s strong Stark family resemblance? > > Perhaps Lyanna had a moment of weakness and succumbed to her mutual passion with Robert before they were officially married? That would explain why Lyanna might have been hidden away from Robert. Or perhaps Rhaegar Targaryen fathered a child on her? Maybe her death was death in childbirth? > > So Ned brings Jon back to Winterfell, determined to be responsible for his sister’s son. But he will not besmirch her honour, so he claims Jon as his own bastard. That would totally be within Ned’s character. Also, if Jon’s father was a Targaryen and people knew about it, then Robert would probably not have spared him. Your speculations sound highly credible to me. There’s definitely some unresolved questions behind both Jon’s parentage and Lyanna’s demise, and your theories fit the circumstances nicely. And although I highly doubt it, what if Lyanna is Jon’s mother AND Ned was his father? :eek: But nah. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/278 "2011-06-30T14:43:50Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > But nah. Based on what we know about Ned I find that to be highly unlikely. It would make for an interesting twist though. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/279 "2011-06-30T14:46:15Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Based on what we know about Ned I find that to be highly unlikely. It would make for an interesting twist though. Hey, it gets COLD up north you know. The last generation of Starks didn’t have dire wolves to help keep them warm. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/280 "2011-06-30T14:49:55Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > How much do you want us to actually talk about this? I will add that none of the topics you have brought up have actually been answered anywhere, but they have been the topic of fan discussion for years. I think it’s an interesting line of discussion, but based on what you see in the show only…there isn’t much there. > > I will agree that it is not safe to assume that Rhaegar was a monster. He might have been, but from what we have seen the that family was clearly not all mad bastards. In fact most of the Targaryens we have met and/or heard of have been quite good people. Only two of them have been evil, assuming you think Danny isn’t evil or mad, and I don’t. We don’t know much about Rhaegar one way or the other though (again, based on the show only, no spoilers I promise). > [@jayjay](#): > > I CAN tell you that there’s a lot of speculation in the fan community about Jon’s mother being Lyanna and his father being…someone else. However, that’s all it is, is speculation, since Martin hasn’t addressed Jon’s parentage explicitly aside from the assumption that he’s Ned’s bastard in any of the books so far. That’s the only reason it’s not a spoiler, because no one (other than Martin) knows if it’s true or just a WAG by fans. > > And aside from the fact that this isn’t an actual spoiler, or even actual book-knowledge, it’s probably a question better asked in the non-spoiler background thread than here, given the rules these episode threads have been under since they began. Guys, I don’t consider myself an anti-spoiler nazi, but I am a bit put-off that you answered that speculation by letting us know based on book knowledge that the issue of Jon’s parentage hasn’t been addressed. Letting us know that something hasn’t happened in the future is less of a spoiler than telling us of something that does happen, but it is still somewhat of a spoiler. Let us non book readers speculate without confirming or denying the speculations, please. I would have preferred to continue to speculate and wonder if something was going to be revealed when the next season resumes. Now I know it won’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068.md?page=15)