# Game of Thrones, Fire and Blood, 6/19/11 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 19, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068 "2011-06-19T21:57:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/281 "2011-06-30T14:51:53Z")
I agree. I’m speculating. I don’t see why book knowledge had to come into this. Any statement based on what has or has not happened in the books is spoilage. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/282 "2011-06-30T14:55:07Z")
I have to say, though, kudos for coming up with that theory from the TV show alone. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/283 "2011-06-30T15:01:10Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I agree. I’m speculating. I don’t see why book knowledge had to come into this. Any statement based on what has or has not happened in the books is spoilage. Really? The absence of spoilers is a spoiler? I was mainly trying to say that I am not spoiled in this subject even though I have read the books and that this was in fact a safe topic for speculation. Speculation is half the fun of this sort of thread, am I not allowed to participate in the thread at all? I did my damnedest to dance around anything that I know from the books and only confine my comments to what I saw on TV. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/284 "2011-06-30T15:01:56Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I CAN tell you that there’s a lot of speculation in the fan community about Jon’s mother being Lyanna and his father being…someone else. However, that’s all it is, is speculation, since Martin hasn’t addressed Jon’s parentage explicitly aside from the assumption that he’s Ned’s bastard in any of the books so far. That’s the only reason it’s not a spoiler, because no one (other than Martin) knows if it’s true or just a WAG by fans. > > And aside from the fact that this isn’t an actual spoiler, or even actual book-knowledge, it’s probably a question better asked in the non-spoiler background thread than here, given the rules these episode threads have been under since they began. Given how seriously we’re taking the no-spoilers rule, please err on the side of caution in your use of spoiler boxes. Thanks, twicks ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/285 "2011-06-30T15:05:18Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Really? The absence of spoilers is a spoiler? I was mainly trying to say that I am not spoiled in this subject even though I have read the books and that this was in fact a safe topic for speculation. Speculation is half the fun of this sort of thread, am I not allowed to participate in the thread at all? Speculate all you want. Just don’t state whether or not the books have addressed it. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/286 "2011-06-30T15:06:42Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Speculate all you want. Just don’t state whether or not the books have addressed it. But if you know I have read the books then my simple participation will indicate if the books have or have not addressed the subject. My presence in the thread is a spoiler by this definition. I am fine if you want to kick us out, but this is kind of nuts. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/287 "2011-06-30T15:06:47Z")
I think this is possibly the single most spoiler-paranoid fan community on this board, seriously. Geez…I even went out of my fucking way to PM the person about it, and was told he hadn’t read my PM because he was afraid it had a spoiler, so if it wasn’t a spoiler, please answer in the thread. Then I DO answer in the thread, because IT’S NOT A FUCKING SPOILER and I get yelled at by Dopers and retro-spoilered by a mod. You people are insane… ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/288 "2011-06-30T15:28:03Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I CAN tell you that there’s a lot of speculation in the fan community about Jon’s mother being Lyanna and his father being…someone else. However, that’s all it is, is speculation, since Martin hasn’t addressed Jon’s parentage explicitly aside from the assumption that he’s Ned’s bastard in any of the books so far. That’s the only reason it’s not a spoiler, because no one (other than Martin) knows if it’s true or just a WAG by fans. > > And aside from the fact that this isn’t an actual spoiler, or even actual book-knowledge, it’s probably a question better asked in the non-spoiler background thread than here, given the rules these episode threads have been under since they began. How much trouble will I get in for boxing yet another spoiler, even though what I’m talking about did appear on the TV series? Ah well, here we go: There was one mention of Jon’s mother. When Robert and Ned were on the road to King’s Landing, with Robert bragging about all his lady conquests, Ned states specifically that Jon’s mother was named “Wylla”, but tells Robert to “leave it be.” I suppose he could have been lying, since Robert apparently never met or even saw this Wylla. I could continue, but I’d have to spoilerbox inside the spoilerbox, so I’ll just save it for the book thread. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/289 "2011-06-30T15:29:47Z")
Yes, my speculation is based on the proposition that Ned has lied, probably more than once to multiple people, about Jon’s origins. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/290 "2011-06-30T15:32:58Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Yes, my speculation is based on the proposition that Ned has lied, probably more than once to multiple people, about Jon’s origins. So is everyone else’s. From the show: Note that he never calls Jon his son, but often calls him a Stark, a Stark of Winterfell, and “of my blood”. Note also that he is squirly when Robert mentions Jon’s mother in either the first or second episode. Note further that Ned promises to have a “long talk” with Jon about his mother the next time they meet. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/291 "2011-06-30T15:37:55Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > So is everyone else’s. > > From the show: Note that he never calls Jon his son, but often calls him a Stark, a Stark of Winterfell, and “of my blood”. Note also that he is squirly when Robert mentions Jon’s mother in either the first or second episode. Note further that Ned promises to have a “long talk” with Jon about his mother the next time they meet. Yes! Thanks for pointing these out. I think that I was getting this feeling of squirrelliness from Ned, but specific observations like these are definitely bolstering my suspicions. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/292 "2011-06-30T15:39:36Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > I will agree that it is not safe to assume that Rhaegar was a monster. He might have been, but from what we have seen the that family was clearly not all mad bastards. In fact most of the Targaryens we have met and/or heard of have been quite good people. Only two of them have been evil, assuming you think Danny isn’t evil or mad, and I don’t. We don’t know much about Rhaegar one way or the other though (again, based on the show only, no spoilers I promise). Two out of four isn’t exactly a good record though. So far we know Aerys was completely insane and Viserys was a sadistic douche, Dany and Aemon are ok, Rhaegar has barely been mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/293 "2011-06-30T15:42:05Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Two out of four isn’t exactly a good record though. So far we know Aerys was completely insane and Viserys was a sadistic douche, Dany and Aemon are ok, Rhaegar has barely been mentioned. We also know about the line of good kings before Aerys. Admittedly they were before Aery’s and who knows when the madness hit the family or if it had just skipped the Kings and hit other brothers and sisters, but you hear a fair bit about at least a few of the old good kings prior to Aerys. That’s good enough to not automatically put Rhaegar in the monster category absent any evidence. We do have Robert’s point of view on the subject, but he was at war with Rhaegar and probably not objective. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/294 "2011-06-30T15:47:41Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > who knows when the madness hit the family It probably took a few generations of inbreeding before it really got bad. The Habsburgs didn’t have brother-sister pairings, so it took several generations. I wonder whether the Ptolemies were known to suffer significant genetic consequences from brother-sister pairings. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/295 "2011-06-30T15:51:12Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It probably took a few generations of inbreeding before it really got bad. The Habsburgs didn’t have brother-sister pairings, so it took several generations. I wonder whether the Ptolemies were known to suffer significant genetic consequences from brother-sister pairings. And there is also the question of if Aerys’s maddness had anything to do with genetics at all, or if something else caused it. Viserys was a douche, but not really any more so than Joffery (less so in some ways), and that could just be the result of being raised in to believe that you really are the most important person in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/296 "2011-06-30T15:56:57Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > And there is also the question of if Aerys’s maddness had anything to do with genetics at all, or if something else caused it. Viserys was a douche, but not really any more so than Joffery (less so in some ways), and that could just be the result of being raised in to believe that you really are the most important person in the world. To be fair to Joffrey (ugh) you have to establish and secure your power early. A couple heads on pikes early on can save a lot of beheading (work, work work…) later. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/297 "2011-06-30T15:56:58Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > But if you know I have read the books then my simple participation will indicate if the books have or have not addressed the subject. My presence in the thread is a spoiler by this definition. > > I am fine if you want to kick us out, but this is kind of nuts. As long as you take care to limit your speculations to what has been revealed in the series, you don’t even have to mention you’ve read the books. In that case, I’m sure nobody will have a problem with your participation. > [@jayjay](#): > > I think this is possibly the single most spoiler-paranoid fan community on this board, seriously. Geez…I even went out of my fucking way to PM the person about it, and was told he hadn’t read my PM because he was afraid it had a spoiler, so if it wasn’t a spoiler, please answer in the thread. Then I DO answer in the thread, because IT’S NOT A FUCKING SPOILER and I get yelled at by Dopers and retro-spoilered by a mod. > > You people are insane… How can you not see how that IS a spoiler? If I were to speculate that Bran regains his ability to walk and remembers Jaime pushed him out the window after he saw him fucking the Queen, and you reply that “nope, he’s still crippled and still doesn’t remember anything in the latest book,” I now have knowledge from the book and know that my speculation is either not true, or at least won’t have an impact on the events of the next few seasons. > [@NAF1138](#): > > Really? The absence of spoilers is a spoiler? I was mainly trying to say that I am not spoiled in this subject even though I have read the books and that this was in fact a safe topic for speculation. Speculation is half the fun of this sort of thread, am I not allowed to participate in the thread at all? I did my damnedest to dance around anything that I know from the books and only confine my comments to what I saw on TV. By telling us that none of those topics have been answered anywhere and are a source of speculation among those who have read all the books, you’ve told us what’s not going to be revealed anytime soon, based on what you and others know from the books. Look, it’s relatively minor. Nobody was yelling at anybody for completely ruining us with major spoilers, and nobody is calling for banishment of book readers from this thread. Just let us speculate without giving us any positive or negative book knowledge. And likewise, feel free to speculate yourself, as long as you’re basing everything you say on what has been revealed in the series. ---
**Author:** ![kath94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/67e7ee/32.png) [@kath94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kath94)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/298 "2011-06-30T16:02:11Z")
Can someone remind me again who Rhaegar is & what happened to him? Would he be the son of the mad king & was most of the family killed, with the exception of Viserys & Dany? (Haven’t read the books, don’t think I’d have the patience to deal with so many characters with odd & similar names.) ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/299 "2011-06-30T16:02:45Z")
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with TV show watchers not wanting people to tell them how books they haven’t read turn out _in their own threads about the TV shows._. Acknowledging that the book-reading community thinks something is an unresolved issue after four books is providing some information about what those books contain. It’s a relatively minor spoiler, but it’s a spoiler. It will affect their expectations about the story. It strikes me as kind of selfish to complain about not being allowed to “speculate” about what happens in a story that you’re several steps ahead of. There’s a thread specifically for speculating about the next book, but that isn’t what the show watchers are doing. You know what’s going to happen! Show watchers don’t. They don’t have any idea. It kind of seems like a few book-readers forget what it’s like not to have any idea. I don’t mean to sound like I’m scolding or trying to moderate these threads. It’s just that I really think they aren’t being crazy. It drives me nuts, too, and I’ve read the books. There is a lot that a show watcher could infer from the conversations book readers have had in the show threads that would shape the story for them. Makes me sad. I think we book readers are obligated not to have certain conversations in the context of TV discussion, rather than insisting we have some kind of right to it. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/300 "2011-06-30T16:06:56Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > To be fair to Joffrey (ugh) you have to establish and secure your power early. A couple heads on pikes early on can save a lot of beheading (work, work work…) later. Of course, we have more than that to go on when considering Joffrey. - His scorn and reluctance to offer condolences to the Starks regarding Bran’s fall - His bullying of the butcher’s boy – and I think he really meant to kill both him and Arya until the wolf got him - His generally callous and self-centered behaviour - His casual cruelty towards his subjects in general and towards Sansa in particular It seems to me that they’re setting up Joffrey to be genuinely psychopathic (or is it sociopathic?) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068.md?page=16)