# Game of Thrones, Fire and Blood, 6/19/11 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 19, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068 "2011-06-19T21:57:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/301 "2011-06-30T16:10:07Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It seems to me that they’re setting up Joffrey to be genuinely psychopathic (or is it sociopathic?) Same thing. My feeling is that Joffrey is the worst of Cersei and the worst of Robert (who is his father figure regardless of who his blood parents are) all rolled into one horrible package. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/302 "2011-06-30T16:16:51Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Same thing. > > My feeling is that Joffrey is the worst of Cersei and the worst of Robert (who is his father figure regardless of who his blood parents are) all rolled into one horrible package. And even then you might also mix in the worst of Jamie, although I don’t know whether his faults are any different from Cersei’s. I suppose Cersei would have avoided the assault on Ned at the brothel and just kept working in the background. The more I think about it, the more I realize that Robert was possibly the worst choice for kingship. What a disaster. We tend to trust Ned’s love for him, but he refused to take responsibility for anything, except killing as many Targaryens as he could find. How in the world did Jon Arryn and Ned let that happen? Were they just blinded by their affection for him? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/303 "2011-06-30T16:17:16Z")
Yeah, Joffrey is definitely in the running for Worst King Evah. :: shudder :: ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/304 "2011-06-30T16:19:43Z")
Really. Makes me wonder whether the people of the Seven Kingdoms might not be better off with the Targaryens restored. Danaerys seems to have picked up more empathy in her character than her putative opponents. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/305 "2011-06-30T16:32:45Z")
I give up. I’ll just never even come into series episode threads again. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/306 "2011-06-30T16:33:28Z")
> [@kath94](#): > > Can someone remind me again who Rhaegar is & what happened to him? Would he be the son of the mad king & was most of the family killed, with the exception of Viserys & Dany? > > (Haven’t read the books, don’t think I’d have the patience to deal with so many characters with odd & similar names.) Rhaegar was the eldest son of the Mad King, Robert killed him at the battle of the trident. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/307 "2011-06-30T16:37:17Z")
I assume that Danaerys named her unborn son, Rhaego, after her late brother Rhaegar. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/308 "2011-06-30T16:37:54Z")
And Drogo. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/309 "2011-06-30T18:40:35Z")
> [@kath94](#): > > Can someone remind me again who Rhaegar is & what happened to him? Would he be the son of the mad king & was most of the family killed, with the exception of Viserys & Dany? > > (Haven’t read the books, don’t think I’d have the patience to deal with so many characters with odd & similar names.) He was the son of the Mad King. He kidnapped and raped and murdered Lyanna Stark, which pretty much led to the big civil war that happened 17ish years before the show starts. I don’t believe the show has told us anything else. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/310 "2011-06-30T19:43:33Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > He was the son of the Mad King. He kidnapped and raped and murdered Lyanna Stark, which pretty much led to the big civil war that happened 17ish years before the show starts. > > I don’t believe the show has told us anything else. > > -Joe The “kidnapped raped and murdered” part isn’t stated specifically in the TV show. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/311 "2011-06-30T20:27:10Z")
I haven’t so much as touched a book, and I thought that was pretty broadly hinted at, at least, in the scene early on (in the crypt, the one that started with “Why did you have to bury her _here_. She should be on a hill…”) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/312 "2011-06-30T20:33:32Z")
What does that hint in your mind? I took that scene at face value – that Ned thought it was appropriate for her to be interred in the crypt, but Robert would have liked to visit her grave in a more pleasant environment. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/313 "2011-06-30T20:42:08Z")
I think the point was that just because she was dead doesn’t mean she was kidnapped raped and murdered because none of that had been explicitly said. Honestly it is hard to keep track of characters exact words in either book or show so this level of scrutiny is a little over the top. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/314 "2011-06-30T22:24:34Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The more I think about it, the more I realize that Robert was possibly the worst choice for kingship. What a disaster. We tend to trust Ned’s love for him, but he refused to take responsibility for anything, except killing as many Targaryens as he could find. How in the world did Jon Arryn and Ned let that happen? Were they just blinded by their affection for him? How could they have stopped it? I think the problem is that Robert was a young man when he ascended the throne, and he had a young man’s flaws. Plenty of young men are a bit wild and like to fight and take physical risks, drink hard, and chase the girls. But unlike most young men, Robert didn’t outgrow those traits as he aged; rather he clung to them. He was the Westeros equivalent of Peter Pan, or the guy at your local bar who just can’t stop talking about his high school football triumphs 20 years ago. We know Ned didn’t see his friend much after Robert became king, so he was probably unaware of that serious character flaw when he agreed to assume the position of Hand. John Arryn probably did recognize it, but it’s hard to make someone assume responsibility if they don’t want to - and once Robert was king, he couldn’t really be removed from the throne (except through violence). If a crystal ball had been available at the time of Robert’s Rebellion and John Arryn had looked into it and seen the sort of man Robert was destined to become, I doubt he would have insisted that Robert should be the one to take the throne. It was just bad luck that the rebel most qualified by blood to assume the kingship would turn out to be the least qualified in terms of temperament to hold it. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/315 "2011-06-30T23:21:47Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What does that hint in your mind? > > I took that scene at face value – that Ned thought it was appropriate for her to be interred in the crypt, but Robert would have liked to visit her grave in a more pleasant environment. Apologies - I wasn’t clear. I meant that Lyanna coming to a bad end was hinted at, in the scene that began with that dialogue. I didn’t mean that the quoted dialoge itself was part of the hinting - just couldn’t think of another way to specify which scene I was referring to here. The hinting, to me, came more from Robert’s descriptions of his loss, and how he avenged her death every night again in his dreams. I’ll admit that I did not, however, make the connection between her death and the Mad King’s family specifically when I saw the episode. That came later, either from one of these threads, or from some other online who-begat-whom guides. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/316 "2011-06-30T23:42:53Z")
Yeah, that was one of the first scenes of the first episode. The name Rhaegar Targaryen didn’t really mean anything at that point. Or maybe he wasn’t even mentioned at all, i’m starting to have a really hard time keeping track of what was on an episode of the show i watched several months ago, a book i read years ago or neither. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/317 "2011-07-01T01:53:50Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > If I were to speculate that Bran regains his ability to walk and remembers Jaime pushed him out the window after he saw him fucking the Queen, and you reply that “nope, he’s still crippled and still doesn’t remember anything in the latest book,” I now have knowledge from the book and know that my speculation is either not true, or at least won’t have an impact on the events of the next few seasons. No, all the knowledge you have is that, as of book 4, Bran still cannot walk. Page One of Book 5 might have Bran dancing a merry jig for all we know. I’m with **jayjay** : you spoiler Nazis are insane. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/318 "2011-07-01T02:22:58Z")
So you contend that you can never spoil something in the negative. You can say “no, Bran will never remember who pushed him”, and it’s not a spoiler, but if you say “yes, he’ll remember it, it is?” (Just going with the previous example - it’s irrelevant now that Jaime confessed. Could you say “no, no one kills Joffrey by book 4”, because you’re not saying something happened? But “yeah, Joffrey gets killed by a rabid squirrel” it’d be a spoiler? Edit: Incidentally, I’m almost to the point of advocating book readers be banished from these threads because it gets so fucking annoying having every thread turn into people asking not to spoil anything with foreknowledge (when there are several other threads designed around differing degrees of spoilers no less) and the would-be spoilers defiantly saying OH I’LL SAY WHAT I WANT, YOU’RE OVERSENSITIVE! We don’t want your knowledge of the books in this thread. We don’t want minor spoilers. We don’t want “something won’t happen” spoilers. Participate in the thread as if all you’ve seen is the show, or just go away. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/319 "2011-07-01T02:44:39Z")
Especially since the ‘complaint’ was about as respectful and mild as it could possibly have been without just not being made at all. “I don’t want to be a spoiler Nazi, but you could you please maybe not respond to TV speculation with answers based on having read all the books?” “Spoiler Nazi! Spoiler Nazi!” If someone got his hands on the next book a day before they did, I think some people’s opinions about what is and what isn’t a spoiler might change, right? If someone went into the book speculation thread and did nothing worse than reply to each guess by saying whether or not that particular thing was commented on in the next book, I would want to burn that motherfucker down. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/320 "2011-07-01T04:29:27Z")
I agree - anyone posting here should pretend that the books don’t exist at all. Limit your comments - all your comments - just to what’s been shown on TV. I don’t see how that’s difficult either to grasp, or to abide by. > [@artemis](#): > > How could they have stopped it? I think the problem is that Robert was a young man when he ascended the throne, and he had a young man’s flaws. Plenty of young men are a bit wild and like to fight and take physical risks, drink hard, and chase the girls. But unlike most young men, Robert didn’t outgrow those traits as he aged; rather he clung to them. He was the Westeros equivalent of Peter Pan, or the guy at your local bar who just can’t stop talking about his high school football triumphs 20 years ago… I’ve always thought there’s a lot of Henry VIII in Robert Baratheon: youthful glory never quite measured up to again, good looks gone to seed, big appetites for women, food and drink, moodiness, arrogance, neglect of family, loveless marriage(s), and a ruthless will to power. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068.md?page=17)