# Game of Thrones, Fire and Blood, 6/19/11 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 19, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068 "2011-06-19T21:57:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/121 "2011-06-21T03:05:59Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Since the scene is past it won’t be too spoilery to reference the book. In the book IIRC there is the implication the healer-women deliberately manipulated Drogo’s initial treatment for the wound so that his wound would go septic. In the show it’s just focused on the “life for life” black magic she did. No, the show pretty clearly implied that the witch woman “killed” Drogo on purpose. The acting and direction fell a little flat for me so it wasn’t as obvious as I’d have liked though. The whole explanation from the witch woman where she says she wasn’t “saved” and had no debt to Dany, where she basically explains that the child and the Khal would have destroyed and killed the world implied that it was done on purpose. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/122 "2011-06-21T03:13:47Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > No, the show pretty clearly implied that the witch woman “killed” Drogo on purpose. The acting and direction fell a little flat for me so it wasn’t as obvious as I’d have liked though. The whole explanation from the witch woman where she says she wasn’t “saved” and had no debt to Dany, where she basically explains that the child and the Khal would have destroyed and killed the world implied that it was done on purpose. Actually i thought it was MORE heavily implied that she was to blame in the show than in the books. ---
**Author:** ![G0sp3l](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c68b51/32.png) [@G0sp3l](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G0sp3l)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/123 "2011-06-21T03:14:36Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Since the scene is past it won’t be too spoilery to reference the book. In the book IIRC there is the implication the healer-women deliberately manipulated Drogo’s initial treatment for the wound so that his wound would go septic. In the show it’s just focused on the “life for life” black magic she did. I don’t believe that’s correct. In the books the poultice she made itched and burned. She also told Drogo no alcohol. Drogo changed it for one of the traditional Dothraki ones that were cooling, he also drank. I tend to believe Mirri Maz Durr was actually intending to help at first but decided to take her revenge when the opportunity presented itself. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/124 "2011-06-21T03:15:17Z")
> [@Taomist](#): > > Is it a spoiler to mention the book now that the series is over? Yes, that is very spoilery and the series is not over. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/125 "2011-06-21T03:19:06Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Yes, that is very spoilery and the series is not over. That particular point he brought up was shown in the series though. In the last meeting where we see Jaimie and Cersei. Or am I remembering that scene wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/126 "2011-06-21T03:28:20Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Actually i thought it was MORE heavily implied that she was to blame in the show than in the books. I agree - the books, it really felt more like ‘she didn’t care one way or the other’ than ‘she planned it’. In the show, without the change to a Dothraki poultice, and with an abbreviated version of the scene where Dany begs her to help him, it makes it look far more like she did it deliberately. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/127 "2011-06-21T03:44:44Z")
> [@Taomist](#): > > Is it a spoiler to mention the book now that the series is over? I think it’s still best to tread very lightly. We don’t know what the showrunners left vague intentionally, in some cases discussions within the first book might be included in season 2 and motivations that aren’t clear in season 1 might be clarified later or even changed to fit the new storyline. It’s tricky, I think the stuff about the witch woman’s remedy is OK since that plot-line is finished and getting clarification on the book version is interesting. It’s very unlikely that anything the book says on that restricted subject is liable to spoil anything since all the players are dead and the woman gave her monologue explaining it. It probably should have been put in a spoiler box (with descriptive context around it to inform readers how spoilerish it is) but it’s OK in the thread for me personally. The stuff about Jamie and Cersei feels a lot more spoilery and should be dealt with far more carefully. Both characters are still alive and will certainly play major roles in season 2. Their motivations are going to be very informative. Expanding on a scene in the show that might have been easy to miss with brief book confirmation is probably not going to do any harm within a spoiler box, but it’s hard to define the boundaries. Next year I think we need two threads for each episode, one for the people who have read book 2 and one for those who haven’t. Then a third omnibus thread for people who have read everything. With all of us who are buying the books after this season of shows, there’ll probably be a lot of people who will have read book 1 and some who have read book 2, but many who haven’t ready past where the show is going. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/128 "2011-06-21T03:51:14Z")
The OP links to two different threads. One with outright spoilers, the second was intended, I believe, for the kinds of discussion going on here. Not really spoiling any plot points, but referencing the book. I think a lot of people want to take the HBO series on its own merits. Want to be able to ferret out motivations of characters, foreshadowing, and all the rest based on what was on TV and not how the book was adapted. ---
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/129 "2011-06-21T03:58:24Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I thought it was a good episode and I’ve really enjoyed the series, but I was mildly disappointed in the CGI used for the dragons. It wasn’t exactly Harryhausen-esque, but it took me out of the moment for a moment. I hope the next season doesn’t rely too heavily on CGI. It looked ok I half expected Dany to turn to the gawping Jorah and say “Oh, by the way - they’re real, and they’re spectacular” ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/130 "2011-06-21T04:16:34Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > The OP links to two different threads. One with outright spoilers, the second was intended, I believe, for the kinds of discussion going on here. Not really spoiling any plot points, but referencing the book. > > I think a lot of people want to take the HBO series on its own merits. Want to be able to ferret out motivations of characters, foreshadowing, and all the rest based on what was on TV and not how the book was adapted. Yeah, but I think there are a lot of people put off by any “omnibus” thread because there’s too great a risk of a reveal that they might consider too spoilery. A book-background thread that’s linked to each episode might limit it’s scope in a way that people might stop injecting book info into the episodes threads. ---
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/131 "2011-06-21T04:20:31Z")
I’m sorry about the Cersei/Jaime reveal; I meant that this season is over, and it’s part of the book background on the two that I was explaining. But you’re right; this is the series, and it may well play out differently, so background from the book wouldn’t be useful at all. But Jaime is NOT ashamed of the Cersei diddling. 😛 I can see it not being played up as much in the series, but would be really surprised and disappointed if make Jaime feel guilty about it. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/132 "2011-06-21T04:45:34Z")
I definitely hope we can maintain a sharp divide in these threads between what has been revealed by the HBO series, and what is revealed or discussed in the books. Just preordered _A Dance with Dragons_, BTW, from Amazon. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/133 "2011-06-21T05:22:59Z")
I think the sadness in Jaime’s voice when he says there is no one like him is an echo of his conversation with his father a few episodes earlier. Jaime knows that his father was right that he has done little with his unique gifts and he now feels he has let him and his family down by failing on the battlefield. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/134 "2011-06-21T05:38:32Z")
This episode really drove home the thing I hate most about this series. The upper class are basically all heartless assholes. “they have my father/son/husband!” Yes, they do, and that’s unfortunate. But you just sacrificed 2000 men to die as part one of your battle plan, and I’m pretty sure that the wives and sons of each of those men will miss them as much as you do. Assholes. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/135 "2011-06-21T05:47:06Z")
I’m surprised no one mentioned that Sansa finally got to do something that wasn’t totally obnoxious and useless. “After I raise my armies, and kill your traitor brother, I’m going to give you his head as well” “Or maybe he’ll give me yours” There were some Dothraki left in Dany’s group, right? Why did they stay? They have no loyalty to her. It makes sense that the freed slaves might be grateful. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/136 "2011-06-21T05:56:18Z")
That Sansa line was terrific. Deftly edited too. Close up on Sansa as she says the line. Joffrey’s reaction shot and then back to Sansa as she turns her head and gives him a very cold stare. It wouldn’t have been so effective if she had said the line, turned her head and then we cut to Joffrey. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/137 "2011-06-21T06:07:51Z")
I liked the Hound stepping in and stopping her planned assassination attempt - and the…almost pleasant way he dealt with her. It was quite well done by all involved. He could have seemed threatening, but, it really felt like actual, heartfelt concern for her…just from someone who doesn’t do ‘nice’ very well. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/138 "2011-06-21T06:10:40Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I think it was more that he realized that he might be his only son left. I like how that line got delivered on Fathers day, both his conversation with Tyrion and about Jaime being captured. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/139 "2011-06-21T06:12:50Z")
Regarding the battle scenes, I wonder if it would be cool if they sliced in the Riders of Rohan charge from the two kings. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068/140 "2011-06-21T06:23:02Z")
I’m not sure if this was posted into last week’s thread following Ned’s death scene, but I laughed my ass off. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/owf6D2vfZqM/hqdefault.jpg "Game of Thrones Episode 9 Post Show Reaction!!!!!! (SPOILER!!!!!!)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owf6D2vfZqM) They killed his nigga Ned. Fuck the blond man! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-fire-and-blood-6-19-11/586068.md?page=8)