# Game of Thrones: omnibus discussion thread based on knowledge of books (OPEN SPOILERS) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 22, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377 "2011-04-22T17:16:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/361 "2011-05-04T20:06:42Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Would that have changed anything? Renly sees the situation correctly. He knows Cersei will make her move if they do not. Whether it’s _right_ to make a move is immaterial; he knows the Lannisters are playing for keeps. Eddard just refuses to see it. Well yes, because Renly would have taken the Lannister kids prisoner and put Cersei’s head on a spike for treason, which is the correct action to take. The point is that Renly is presented at this point as far more honorable than Baelish, and he’s offering Ned his support. Why wouldn’t he tell him the truth? ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/362 "2011-05-04T20:20:16Z")
> [@Feyrat](#): > > Well yes, because Renly would have taken the Lannister kids prisoner and put Cersei’s head on a spike for treason, which is the correct action to take. > > The point is that Renly is presented at this point as far more honorable than Baelish, and he’s offering Ned his support. Why wouldn’t he tell him the truth? Assume he had. Unless Eddard was willing to take Renly’s 100 swords and enact his plan, Renly wasn’t going to stick around. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/363 "2011-05-04T21:49:29Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Lawful Stupid. Although we’ve had that discussion before… Has anyone done an alignment chart for GoT? My suggestions: Lawful Good: Ned Neutral Good: Jon Snow Chaotic Good: Arya Lawful Neutral: ? True Neutral: Tyrion Chaotic Neutral: ? Lawful Evil: Cersei? (or NE?) Neutral Evil: ? Chaotic Evil: Littlefinger ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/364 "2011-05-04T22:48:39Z")
Feyrat: I think MOIDALIZE is quite correct. Stark is too honorable to do the smart thing, and keep his mouth shut until Cersei is in irons. AFter all, according to Westeros law and mores, she is a traitor and an abomination. Once the cat was out of the bag, he should have thrown in with Renly. Admittedly, this would have been a betrayal of Stannis, but Renly is much more suited to be king, IMO. Barkis’ is Willin’: I suspect that Jeyne’s mother somehow ensorcelled Robb (remember magic is now becoming more powerful now that dragons are back in the world), possibly one reason we were never shown anything that went on in her family’s castle. Jeyne doesn’t seem to me to be enough of a \*femme fatale \*to make men lose all their senses and Robb had to know that breaking his words to the Freys would be disastrous. kinetic: I would say Barristan the Bold is Lawful Neutral. Tywin Lannister would be Lawful Evil; Littlefinger, Neutral Evil; and Cersei, Chaotic Evil. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/365 "2011-05-04T22:56:16Z")
Lawful Neutral: Lord Tarly (Sam’s father). Chaotic Neutral: Bronn. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/366 "2011-05-04T22:57:15Z")
> [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](#): > > kinetic: I would say Barristan the Bold is Lawful Neutral. Tywin Lannister would be Lawful Evil; Littlefinger, Neutral Evil; and Cersei, Chaotic Evil. Agree with Barristan, and could see Tywin as LE. Littlefinger main purpose seems to be to create chaos though, with the hopes he’ll come out on top. And I don’t remember Cersei doing anything particularly chaotic - she is a great manipulator and bends rules to her advantage, which to me suggests lawfulness or at least neutrality. IMHO at least. Also, where would Dany fit in there? She’s definitely good, and a bit chaotic (unleashing dragons and sacking cities to free slaves). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/367 "2011-05-04T23:00:22Z")
Oh, and Chaotic Evil: Gregor Clegane. And Walder Frey, now that I think of it. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/368 "2011-05-04T23:07:35Z")
Did find this over at the asoiaf wiki: [http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/46639-a-game-of-thrones-alignment-chart/](http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/46639-a-game-of-thrones-alignment-chart/) Not sure I agree with some of their interpretations. ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/369 "2011-05-04T23:31:41Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Assume he had. Unless Eddard was willing to take Renly’s 100 swords and enact his plan, Renly wasn’t going to stick around. But then he tells Littlefinger about it, Littlefinger proposes a completely dishonorable plan that DOESN’T fall in line with Ned’s morals (and Renly’s basically did, I still don’t understand why Ned needed to be all “omg children need their sleep!” about it) and then tells Littlefinger he needs troops. The whole thing just doesn’t make sense to me. Why tell Littlefinger and NOT Renly? Renly’s plan is much more in line with Ned’s plans and morality than Petyr’s is. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/370 "2011-05-04T23:32:13Z")
kinetec: I think Littlefinger can act lawfully when he wants to; after all, he is a financial wizard. Right now, chaos is in his advantage as he is a low-born lord with no reputation for battle wizardry. He clearly is trying to end up a king or a great lord. I see Cersei as chaotic because her actions in trying to break up the Tyrell-Lannister are clearly not in the best interests of her family and son. Without the Tyrells, it seems to me, the Lannisters are up the proverbial creek. I don’t think a lawful person would promote a relatively unknown as grand admiral simply because he is young and she likes his body; refuse to accept that her son is going to have to marry and Margaery would be an excellent choice; mollycoddle her son rather than having him trained by an expert like Loras and refuse to have him sit in council; take on a rogue like Qyburn; and piss off the bankers the way she has. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/371 "2011-05-04T23:34:53Z")
> [@Feyrat](#): > > The whole thing just doesn’t make sense to me. Why tell Littlefinger and NOT Renly? Renly’s plan is much more in line with Ned’s plans and morality than Petyr’s is. It’s been a while, so my most recent memories are from the series. Is it possible he just trusted Littlefinger more than Renly? Littlefinger was someone that Cat said he could trust…(at least in the show). -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/372 "2011-05-05T13:40:53Z")
I think Ned’s mistrust of Renly has something to do with that picture Renly showed him of Margaery and his comment about how she looked like Lyanna. Ned thought that was “queer.” Personally, I didn’t quite grasp the meaning of that scene. Was Renly hinting that he thought Margaery might gain Robert’s favor because of her likeness to Lyanna (although Ned disagreed with that)? And if so, why? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/373 "2011-05-05T14:01:05Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > I think Ned’s mistrust of Renly has something to do with that picture Renly showed him of Margaery and his comment about how she looked like Lyanna. Ned thought that was “queer.” > > Personally, I didn’t quite grasp the meaning of that scene. Was Renly hinting that he thought Margaery might gain Robert’s favor because of her likeness to Lyanna (although Ned disagreed with that)? And if so, why? Yes, he wanted to replace the Lannisters with the Tyrells, Robert was madly in love with Lyanna. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/374 "2011-05-05T14:25:00Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > Did find this over at the asoiaf wiki: [http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/46639-a-game-of-thrones-alignment-chart/](http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/46639-a-game-of-thrones-alignment-chart/) > > Not sure I agree with some of their interpretations. Nor am I. But it’s a fascinating take on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/375 "2011-05-05T15:17:12Z")
> [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](#): > > kinetec: I think Littlefinger can act lawfully when he wants to; after all, he is a financial wizard. Right now, chaos is in his advantage as he is a low-born lord with no reputation for battle wizardry. He clearly is trying to end up a king or a great lord. I think that even now, after four books, we don’t know enough about Littlefinger’s motivations to assign him an alignment. ---
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/376 "2011-05-05T15:18:21Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I think that even now, after four books, we don’t know enough about Littlefinger’s motivations to assign him an alignment. Eh. I wouldn’t ever put him on the good end of things. I don’t know if the definition of chaotic is random, or just ‘not lawful’. I think he suits/serves himself at all times; that’s not lawful. Just don’t know if it’s chaotic or not. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/377 "2011-05-05T15:19:13Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Yes, he wanted to replace the Lannisters with the Tyrells, Robert was madly in love with Lyanna. And of course, Renly was madly in love (or at least moderately in lust) with Loras, so HIS motivation was clear enough. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/378 "2011-05-05T15:22:30Z")
I’d say Littlefinger is Chaotic Neutral (man is this nerdy). He’s mainly out for himself, and he’ll play both sides to get what he wants. He’s capable of being good, but he understands what a disadvantage that is in most situations. He can be trustworthy and reliable as it suits him, only to turn on someone and sell them out when it’s of maximum benefit to himself. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/379 "2011-05-05T15:47:56Z")
Merijeek, Feyrat: I skimmed \*A Game of Thrones \*last night and here is my take on why Ned sided with Littlefinger. 1.) Ned’s honor made him view with repugnance Renly’s plan because it meant striking to gain control of the Lannister children while Robert lay dying. Stark also states he doesn’t like using frightened children as pawns in a power game. 2.) Stark is probably astute enough to realize that if he exposes Cersei and removes her children from the succession, Renly will strike to grab the throne for himself. Stark believes that Stannis should be the rightful king. 3.) Littlefinger had promised Catelyn that he would help and Stark is stupid enough to think Littlefinger will honor that promise. 4.) At that point, given that he has rebuffed Renly and the Lannisters are up in arms, Littlefinger is probably the only lord who can furnish Stark with the men he needs. Personally, I agree with Feyrat. Stark should have sided with Renly, who would be a much better king. If this was too much for his honor, then he should have gone to his keep and told his household: “We’re fleeing just as soon as we can get the horses to ride. Grab all the weapons and gold you can. Anyone who disagrees with me is going to get bitch-slapped to the moon.” Alessan: Given that Littlefinger started the War of Five Kings by persuading his wife to poison Jon Arryn and then having her mail that lens to the Starks, I think we can conclude he’s not a good person. I also think it’s obvious that he is out for himself to become a great lord. ---
**Author:** ![Enilno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58f4c7/32.png) [@Enilno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enilno)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/380 "2011-05-05T16:14:03Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > I’d say Littlefinger is Chaotic Neutral (man is this nerdy). He’s mainly out for himself, and he’ll play both sides to get what he wants. He’s capable of being good, but he understands what a disadvantage that is in most situations. He can be trustworthy and reliable as it suits him, only to turn on someone and sell them out when it’s of maximum benefit to himself. I don’t think Littlefinger can be anything but evil. He’s never been trustworthy. Aside from instigating the whole war that ravaged the entire continent, he’s known to be involved in at least two assassinations (Jon Arryn, Jeoffry), personally murdered Lysa and had the singer tortured into false confession, and was probably involved in Ned’s execution instead of being allowed to take the Black. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377.md?page=20)