# Game of Thrones: omnibus discussion thread based on knowledge of books (OPEN SPOILERS) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 22, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377 "2011-04-22T17:16:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/481 "2011-05-09T14:03:48Z")
Littlefinger has opportunities in chaos, so he creates it. Plus with two great houses ay war he can kill off rivals. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/482 "2011-05-09T14:16:23Z")
Yeah, Littlefinger wanted to instigate a war between Starks and Lannisters. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/483 "2011-05-09T14:21:05Z")
Question about Jaime – he has that conversation with the queen about what to do if Bran remembers what happens, and he makes all these threats against Ned, the Stark clan, and the king, not only to kill them all but to go to war. He seems to be relegated to hanging around the king’s castle listening to the king play with his whores. At best he is an absentee landlord. At worst he is a courtier with a title, some personal servants and no real power. Does he have an army hanging around back at his castle? Does he have a castle and lands? ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/484 "2011-05-09T14:24:52Z")
He was full of hot air when he made those threats - Jaime is not one to consider the realistic side of things. But he is the son of Tywin Lannister, and House Lannister has lands and swords aplenty. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/485 "2011-05-09T14:28:34Z")
> [@Snickers](#): > > For the first, I think the book refers to Joff hearing his father say something like “better dead than a cripple” or some such. For his many faults, Joff also has a serious case of father worship going on, which is kind of tragic for him as Robert can’t be bothered to pay attention to any of the kids. ISTR that Joff contracts with the sellsword to kill Bran because he thinks in his own twisted way that doing so will make his father proud of him. > > For the second, I dunno. Maybe he hates the Lannisters, and thinks pitching the Starks against them will bring their downfall. He does kind of seem to be working with Ned here to depose the Lannisters, tho’ it ends badly. Or maybe it’s just Littlefinger being Littlefinger, sowing all sorts of seeds of discontent. Yes, Joff overhears Robert saying that Bran would be better off dead (when Robert is drunk). I don’t think Littlefinger really cares what happens to the Lannisters. He was willing to help Ned if Ned agreed to put Tommen on the throne, but once Ned refused he was happy enough to help Cersei. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/486 "2011-05-09T14:36:56Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > He was full of hot air when he made those threats - Jaime is not one to consider the realistic side of things. But he is the son of Tywin Lannister, and House Lannister has lands and swords aplenty. I he the eldest son, due to inherit it all some day? Are kings in this kingdom commonly overthrown by rebellions of uppity lords? Seem to me this has been the case for the last couple of kings at least. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/487 "2011-05-09T14:37:11Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > He was full of hot air when he made those threats - Jaime is not one to consider the realistic side of things. But he is the son of Tywin Lannister, and House Lannister has lands and swords aplenty. I don’t think it was hot air, Jamie would really try to take them all on, singlehandedly (heh) if he had too. > [@Boyo Jim](#): > > He seems to be relegated to hanging around the king’s castle listening to the king play with his whores. At best he is an absentee landlord. At worst he is a courtier with a title, some personal servants and no real power. He is a member of the kingsguard. They are considered the seven deadliest warriors in the seven kingdoms, but yeah in times of peace his job is basically hanging out with the king. Who in this case does not personally like, or trust him. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/488 "2011-05-09T14:40:56Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I he the eldest son, due to inherit it all some day? Are kings in this kingdom commonly overthrown by rebellions of uppity lords? Seem to me this has been the case for the last couple of kings at least. He is the eldest son, but he’s not the heir. The Kingsguard renounce all family responsibilities (and I think are supposed to be celibate, so cannot produce heirs themselves), which took him out of the running. One of the (many) reasons Tywin dislikes Tyrion so much is that Jaime becoming a Kingsguard made Tyrion the heir, and Tywin hates that all of his lands and wealth are going to be under Tyrion’s control. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/489 "2011-05-09T14:42:32Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I don’t think it was hot air, Jamie would really try to take them all on, singlehandedly (heh) if he had too. … But he explicitly mentioned waging war, and I wanted to know whether he has the resources to do this. That seems way different than individual combat. OTOH, I suppose it wouldn’t necessarily mean the same to him as it does to me. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/490 "2011-05-09T14:44:26Z")
Have we even met Tywin on the show yet? If we did, I missed him. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/491 "2011-05-09T14:44:38Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > But he explicitly mentioned waging war, and I wanted to know whether he has the resources to do this. That seems way different than individual combat. OTOH, I suppose it wouldn’t necessarily mean the same to him as it does to me. Well if he starts killing Starks the war would happen whether he personally was in charge of the Lannister armies or not. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/492 "2011-05-09T14:46:25Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Have we even met Tywin on the show yet? If we did, I missed him. I’m not watching the series (we don’t have HBO), but I doubt it. Tywin doesn’t really show up in person until after Ned dies, to try to keep the kingdom from flying to pieces because of Cersei’s and Joff’s political fuck-ups, and the series isn’t there yet. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/493 "2011-05-09T14:49:01Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Don’t assume other people are stupid. Well, I’m mainly thinking _I_ would have trouble following the show if I hadn’t read the books, so I’m not assuming others are stupid for not being able to do so, or at least no stupider then myself. But my problem is only partly with the difficulty of following the series. The main problem I see is that even if people can keep track of whose who, the large number of characters and plot lines just make it to hard to keep much of a story going. This episode was a good example, half the scenes were either introducing new characters or cluky exposition so the audience new what was going on. And we’re half way through the season, so its not like we should still be in the “setting up” phase. In the books the huge scale was part of their appeal, but in a TV series I think it works against the writers. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/494 "2011-05-09T15:27:21Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I’m not watching the series (we don’t have HBO), but I doubt it. Tywin doesn’t really show up in person until after Ned dies, to try to keep the kingdom from flying to pieces because of Cersei’s and Joff’s political fuck-ups, and the series isn’t there yet. Charles Dance has the role & definitely has not yet appeared. Alas, he was considered “the thinking woman’s crumpet” in _Jewel In The Crown_ days. No longer a crumpet, he’ll probably be an excellent Tywin… (I wonder if the concern some readers of the series have expressed about “confusing” non-readers is actually their impatience at having to hear, once again, stuff they figured out long ago?) ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/495 "2011-05-09T16:06:57Z")
You guys thinking what I’m thining when you see the “Television characters who’ve endured the most tragedies” thread? ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/496 "2011-05-09T16:11:12Z")
> [@Snickers](#): > > For the first, I think the book refers to Joff hearing his father say something like “better dead than a cripple” or some such. For his many faults, Joff also has a serious case of father worship going on, which is kind of tragic for him as Robert can’t be bothered to pay attention to any of the kids. ISTR that Joff contracts with the sellsword to kill Bran because he thinks in his own twisted way that doing so will make his father proud of him. > > For the second, I dunno. Maybe he hates the Lannisters, and thinks pitching the Starks against them will bring their downfall. He does kind of seem to be working with Ned here to depose the Lannisters, tho’ it ends badly. Or maybe it’s just Littlefinger being Littlefinger, sowing all sorts of seeds of discontent. Joff is arrogant and cruel, but he’s not an idiot. He knows that Ned is his “father’s” best friend. How could he think that killing one of Ned’s children would make him look good? As for Littlefinger and the Lannisters, Cat already suspects them, and Lf seems to know where Ned is headed, so it seems like a huge risk for very little gain to single himself out as an enemy to Tyrion. Maybe it will all come out in the fifth book. Or the seventh. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/497 "2011-05-09T16:21:18Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > Joff is arrogant and cruel, but he’s not an idiot. He knows that Ned is his “father’s” best friend. How could he think that killing one of Ned’s children would make him look good? Well, he WAS idiotic enough to try to kill Arya. Admittedly, though, that was in the heat of anger. Joffrey doesn’t seem to be the brightest bulb in the chandelier in any case. He takes after his mother in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/498 "2011-05-09T16:23:58Z")
I don’t think Littlefinger cares one way or the other who is in power as long as he can position himself to benefit. Wither Robert dead and Renly fled, what use would it be to help out Ned? ---
**Author:** ![Enilno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58f4c7/32.png) [@Enilno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enilno)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/499 "2011-05-09T16:44:03Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > Joff is arrogant and cruel, but he’s not an idiot. He knows that Ned is his “father’s” best friend. How could he think that killing one of Ned’s children would make him look good? > > As for Littlefinger and the Lannisters, Cat already suspects them, and Lf seems to know where Ned is headed, so it seems like a huge risk for very little gain to single himself out as an enemy to Tyrion. > > Maybe it will all come out in the fifth book. Or the seventh. Joff already has some bad feelings towards the Starks, Robb specifically as even Ned had noticed, but I think for him Bran would do as well. Add to that the way Tyrion slapped him around and made him offer his condolences to the Starks, and it’s easy to see someone like him transferring that hate towards Bran. While he may have had Robert’s statement in mind, I think his real motivation is “getting even”. Plus, wasn’t it Cercei that said the reason he might have done it was to please his father? I don’t think that HER judgement of her son’s character is in anyway reliable. With Littlefinger, if he had told the truth, that he lost the dagger to Robert, it doesn’t really accomplish anything. I doubt that Ned would believe that Robert, even as he is now, would have ordered it. They probably wouldn’t have been able to trace it to Joff, either. They would have been at an impass. On the other hand, by telling them that a Lannister was responsible, which I think he knew that Cat and Ned had already suspected, and pushes them further into a conflict which might benefit him. I don’t think he was very worried about Tyrion. Even as a Lannister Tyrion doesn’t have much power. That’s probably part of why he singled him out instead of Cercei or Jaime. And I think he already knew that Tyrion didn’t trust him. After all even after learning of the dagger Tyrion didn’t really change his opinions on Littlefinger or make any moves against him, part of it because he needed Littlefinger on account of the war and all. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/500 "2011-05-09T16:48:47Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > Joff is arrogant and cruel, but he’s not an idiot. He knows that Ned is his “father’s” best friend. How could he think that killing one of Ned’s children would make him look good? Joffrey IS an idiot. He’s immature, impulsive, and desperatly wants Robert’s approval, and his mother’s family has been filling his ears about how the Starks are terrible people anyway. The Lannister-Stark rivalry predates the beginning of the book. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377.md?page=26)