# Game of Thrones: omnibus discussion thread based on knowledge of books (OPEN SPOILERS) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 22, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377 "2011-04-22T17:16:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/541 "2011-05-10T16:37:16Z")
An armed and militant church during a time of civil war. What could go wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/542 "2011-05-10T17:11:09Z")
Even though most of her problems are of her own making, I almost feel bad for Cersei, because she’s so politically inept. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/543 "2011-05-10T17:49:04Z")
Jaime and Tyrion I love despite their many flaws. Cersei is just a hateful bitch who deserves to die. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/544 "2011-05-10T18:12:46Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > An armed and militant church during a time of civil war. What could go wrong? I always thought it was hilarious (and mildly allegorical to certain real-world political organizations) that Cersei was the creator of her own (apparent) downfall, in re-arming the Faith Militant in order to draw more factions (and money) to her side. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/545 "2011-05-10T18:34:44Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Jaime and Tyrion I love despite their many flaws. Cersei is just a hateful bitch who deserves to die. Yes, though she didn’t realize it, Joffrey is much more like his mother than either of his fathers. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/546 "2011-05-10T18:40:37Z")
> [@OpalCat](#): > > I’ve been happy with the writing for the most part. I think the dialogue comes across as true to the spirit of the books and the characters are all being developed properly with the possible exception of Sansa, who doesn’t seem infatuated with Joffrey and courtly life as she is in the books… Joffrey hasn’t turned on the charm though, has he? Perhaps we will see that in the next episode and Sansa will warm to him. Joffrey’s behavior towards Sansa in the book is inconsistent but in the show his scene with Cersei clarifies it. He doesn’t like Sansa but will be kind occasionally just like his mother advises. And come to think of it Sansa does seem to forget Lady’s death in an awful hurry in the book. I actually think her attitude in the series is more realistic. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/547 "2011-05-10T18:42:43Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Jaime and Tyrion I love despite their many flaws. Cersei is just a hateful bitch who deserves to die. +1 ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/548 "2011-05-10T18:46:58Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > Joffrey hasn’t turned on the charm though, has he? Perhaps we will see that in the next episode and Sansa will warm to him. Joffrey’s behavior towards Sansa in the book is inconsistent but in the show his scene with Cersei clarifies it. He doesn’t like Sansa but will be kind occasionally just like his mother advises. And come to think of it Sansa does seem to forget Lady’s death in an awful hurry in the book. I actually think her attitude in the series is more realistic. That’s because in the book she’s a bird in a cage who has been trained to parrot what she’s supposed to parrot. She’s very much just a girl reading her lines in the book. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/549 "2011-05-10T18:52:36Z")
I have to keep reminding myself that Jamie threw my favorite character out of a tower because i constantly find myself liking him. Both in the books and in the show, that means it was great casting because the guy is nailing the role. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/550 "2011-05-10T19:54:47Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > That’s because in the book she’s a bird in a cage who has been trained to parrot what she’s supposed to parrot. She’s very much just a girl reading her lines in the book. ``` Yes Martin made Sansa a very thin character in the first book and has fleshed her out since then especially in the fourth book. The TV writers have made her a more rounded character right from the beginning. I don't think that's a bad decision. In general when the writers deviate from the book it has often been to flesh out some of the thinner characters like Viserys, Joffrey and Sansa and on the whole they have done it with skill. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/551 "2011-05-10T20:00:37Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > Yes Martin made Sansa a very thin character in the first book and has fleshed her out since then especially in the fourth book. The TV writers have made her a more rounded character right from the beginning. I don’t think that’s a bad decision. In general when the writers deviate from the book it has often been to flesh out some of the thinner characters like Viserys, Joffrey and Sansa and on the whole they have done it with skill. I think Sansa is much deeper at this point of the show than she is in the books (or even would be for some time). That being said, I do think that the two more glaring changes from the broad stories and themes are… 1. Sansa - in the books she was an idiot girl who believed all the honor and glory bullshit. Because of that, and the place she thought she should have in it, she turned against her family. In the TV series, she doesn’t seem impressed with King’s Landing, Joffrey isn’t even buttering her up for the sake of manipulation, and even Cersei doesn’t seem to be bothering to manipulate her. As it is now, it doesn’t make sense (even in her tiny brain) for her to choose the Lannisters. On the other hand, at least she has gotten a hell of a lot prettier than she was in the first episode. Now I can see what Littlefinger saw in her and Cat. 2. Cat and the offer. I think it’s a huge part of Cat’s later guilt that everything that killed so many Starks all came from her urging Ned to take the job. In the TV show, of course, she is all weepy because she doesn’t want him to go. Pretty significant 180 for her character. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/552 "2011-05-10T20:30:08Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > In the TV series, she doesn’t seem impressed with King’s Landing, Joffrey isn’t even buttering her up for the sake of manipulation, and even Cersei doesn’t seem to be bothering to manipulate her. I am pretty sure we will get this in the next few episodes though. It’s already been set up in the scene where Cersei advises Joffrey to be nicer to Sansa and also this episode when Cersei tells Ned that Sansa doesn’t have much of the North in her. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/553 "2011-05-10T20:53:04Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > I am pretty sure we will get this in the next few episodes though. It’s already been set up in the scene where Cersei advises Joffrey to be nicer to Sansa and also this episode when Cersei tells Ned that Sansa doesn’t have much of the North in her. When did Cersei say that? ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/554 "2011-05-10T21:19:35Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > When did Cersei say that? Near the end of episode 4 when Cersei goes to speak with Ned. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/555 "2011-05-10T21:22:52Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > When did Cersei say that? The first was during her “Everyone is an enemy who isn’t us” speech, and the second was her visiting Ned during the tournament". -Joe ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/556 "2011-05-10T23:02:34Z")
> [@Eleanor\_of\_Aquitaine](#): > > Can the lords override the natural succession in their wills? Just before the Red Wedding, Robb Stark drew up a document proclaiming Jon Snow as heir to Winterfell, even though he knows Sansa is still alive. But maybe he can do that only because he’s a king? Wow, I don’t remember that (but in my defense, I’m stupid). Never mind the other Stark heirs, how could he override the vows Jon made on the Wall? ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/557 "2011-05-10T23:39:13Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > Wow, I don’t remember that (but in my defense, I’m stupid). Never mind the other Stark heirs, how could he override the vows Jon made on the Wall? He could if Jon chose to ignore his vows and leave. After all, it’s the Lord of Winterfell who’s responsible for beheading deserters. If that’s Jon, well who’s going to do it? ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/558 "2011-05-10T23:44:33Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > There IS some royal precedent for that in Westeros. The Targaryens did it quite a bit. Not just quite a bit, apparently it was the norm for Targaryens. I was rereading the beginning of GoT last weekend, and Dany is very surprised to get married off to Khal and had always expected that she’d wind up marrying Vis, and there’s a section of her thought process about how dragons wouldn’t lie down with common beasts or something of that sort. Her own parents were bro & sis, and I think we’re supposed to infer that a lot of her father’s madness when he was king was the result of generations of inbreeding. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/559 "2011-05-11T00:55:24Z")
There were 17 Targaryen kings. Of those, it looks like 6 married their sisters (although there are some that we don’t know who they married). We know for sure that Daeron II (married a Martel), Aegon III (married a Velaryon), Aegon II (killed his sister), Viserys I (married an Arryn and a Hightower) didn’t marry their sisters. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/560 "2011-05-11T01:53:20Z")
I still don’t like Cersei, but after reading A Feast for Crows I had to feel a bit sorry for her. I mean, it’s pretty obvious that she’s always been a bitch from an early age (Oberyn Martell tells Tyrion that Cersei threatened to pull out their nurse’s tongue when the nurse tried to stop them from seeing baby Tyrion) but she never really had a mother figure to teach her anything. And she got a pretty raw deal with Robert. Would she have been a different woman with Rhaegar? Who knows. Still, it was intensely satisfying to see Jaime refuse to help her at the end of the fourth book. As for legitimizing Jon, there is precedent for kings legitimizing their bastards, as Robb tells Cat. He also says that the Wall would probably release Jon from his vows if they were sent a hundred men to take his place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377.md?page=29)