# Game of Thrones: omnibus discussion thread based on knowledge of books (OPEN SPOILERS) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 22, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377 "2011-04-22T17:16:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![With\_Rye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@With\_Rye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/With_Rye)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/41 "2011-04-23T03:37:07Z")
> [@Spectralist](#): > > Possibly but “keep his parentage secret” or something like that seems much too specific for a deathbed request. Just plain “Protect him” or “Keep him safe” or something like that would seem much more likely. Even if it was that specific it would seem odd to me for Ned to not eventually tell Cat unless he for some reason didn’t believe she could keep it a secret. And it just doesn’t seem like that would have been the case. I think everyone involved knew how crucial it was to keep Jon’s Targaryen lineage a secret; if anyone knew or suspected, Jon–as direct heir–would be as good as dead. Ned doesn’t tell Cat not because he distrusts her, but because he is (fatally!) honorable to a fault and he keeps his promises, especially, I would think, to his dying sister’s last request. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/42 "2011-04-23T03:38:55Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Uh, no Ice refers to the white walkers. Things can have two meanings. Also, read the quote from Dany’s visions in the House of the Undying. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/43 "2011-04-23T03:46:49Z")
**jayjay** , Dany’s vision shows Rhaegar, but the woman is Elia Martell and the baby is Aegon. Gregor smashes his head against a wall during the sack of King’s Landing. It’s my opinion that Rhaegar was just mistaken about who the prophecy referred to. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/44 "2011-04-23T04:11:06Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > **jayjay** , Dany’s vision shows Rhaegar, but the woman is Elia Martell and the baby is Aegon. Gregor smashes his head against a wall during the sack of King’s Landing. > > It’s my opinion that Rhaegar was just mistaken about who the prophecy referred to. Ah…okay. I forgot that Rhaegar’s son with Elia was named Aegon. And I’m not sure what I meant by what I posted, other than the quote. I was apparently confused somehow…you know how you re-read something you wrote and think “What the hell was my point?” Yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/45 "2011-04-23T04:13:02Z")
Here’s a question, who named Jon? ---
**Author:** ![Spectralist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Spectralist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectralist)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/46 "2011-04-23T04:14:02Z")
I think Ned named him after Jon Arryn. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/47 "2011-04-23T04:20:23Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I always took the man to be Rhaegar, the woman Lyanna and the child Jon. The third “head” is still iffy at this point, though. It’s clearly Hodor. ---
**Author:** ![Ura-Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Ura-Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ura-Maru)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/48 "2011-04-23T04:38:13Z")
For “Why not tell Cat,” two reasons. First, he’s not keeping Jon’s parentage in reserve for the next revolution. He wants the secret kept forever. You keep a secret forever by not telling anyone, even those you trust. Second, he had been married for Cat for 9 months at that point, and they’d been able to actually interact for like 15 hours. Not trusting her with a serious secret is reasonable. By the time he’d grown to love and trust her, he’d been deceiving her about it for years, and she’d already started to resent Jon. Hard to backtrack from that, and much riskier than not. And what would it gain? She’d still probably treat him badly, out of guilt for treating him badly. That said, while I don’t think Jon is Ned’s son, (there’s way to much careful language when Ned talks and thinks about him) there’s an outside chance that he’s Brandon’s, or Ned’s dad’s Or Robert’s via Lyanna? How long were her and Rhaegar together? Ned COULD have stashed little Rhaegar/Lyanna with someone else, and that all the vagueness in the narration is a smokescreen. And there was some not-particularly-subtle hinting at something between Ned and Lady Starfall. And people have been mistaken about prophecies before, particularly THAT one, and the version of that we got was third hand/seen in a vision. And there’s been no hint that Jon has any Tygarian traits at all. Beyond a, ah, ‘taste for fire’ shall we say, which is quite a stretch. The thing is, that’s a LOT of smokescreen, and the Rhaegar+Lyanna=Jon version is the simplest theory that explains a lot of weirdness. Most importantly, if Ned didn’t promise Lianna he’d keep her child safe, what DID he promise? – Some baby-swaping seems likely, if only because that gives Jon doing the same a nice echo quality. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/49 "2011-04-23T04:52:12Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > You have my blood. Isn’t that acknowledging parenthood? There’s a big difference between that, and “We share common blood.” ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/50 "2011-04-23T05:03:23Z")
> [@Woeg](#): > > He could let Cat in on the whole shebang, but knowing the truth of the matter, she will be likely to coddle Jon and treat him as respected family, blood…which, if witnessed by Robert, would make him suspicious. After all, what woman would so coddle a bastard begot by her husband? By keeping her in the dark, Cat does what any mother, especially in such a social environ as the Seven Kingdoms, might do…she treats Jon with just shy of open contempt. Or, Ned could tell Cat, and she could bitch about it in public, and be nice to Jon in private. Seems a lot easier for everybody to me. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/51 "2011-04-23T05:07:41Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > It’s clearly Hodor. Which came first, Hodor or Timmy? ---
**Author:** ![fusoya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecccb3/32.png) [@fusoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fusoya)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/52 "2011-04-23T17:31:08Z")
Hodor. Game of Thrones came out a year before South Park even started. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/53 "2011-04-23T21:23:17Z")
Hodor Hodor Hodor. Hodor? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/54 "2011-04-24T00:53:42Z")
AUGH! This is why it’s so hard to read the episode threads and keep my spoiler finger out of it…someone over there just posted that they only just realized that Jaime and Cersei weren’t just siblings, but twins. And then hoped she doesn’t get pregnant! AUGH!!! I just stared at the post and ran through the possible responses in my head for about five minutes before just deciding to post this mini-rant here. It’s SO TEMPTING! ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/55 "2011-04-24T01:28:20Z")
I imagine that the newbies will figure it out before Ned does. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/56 "2011-04-24T02:07:25Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > Well, if Rhaegar didn’t knock whatshername up, what on earth was the Kingsguard doing there instead of protecting the, you know, king? They left Jamie to protect the king, so they knew he’d be safe 😉 ETA: more seriously, would the Kingsguad even protect her if she was knocked up by Rhaegar. Even if she was, the kid would just be the bastard of the prince, and I don’t think we ever see the Kingsguard protecting any of Roberts bastards. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/57 "2011-04-24T02:14:05Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > They left Jamie to protect the king, so they knew he’d be safe 😉 > > ETA: more seriously, would the Kingsguad even protect her if she was knocked up by Rhaegar. Even if she was, the kid would just be the bastard of the prince, and I don’t think we ever see the Kingsguard protecting any of Roberts bastards. Yes, but none of Robert’s bastards was birthed by the love of his life. ETA: And more importantly, they were guarding a very pregnant Lyanna more than the child. ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/58 "2011-04-24T02:26:53Z")
> [@Spectralist](#): > > I’m far from convinced. There’s certainly quite a few hints here and there that they might be Jon’s parents but there’s absolutely no _good_ evidence. A mountain of maybes doesn’t make a certainty for me. Monty Python’s bridge knight is an object of ridicule, not a model to be emulated. It behooves us to admit the obvious after a certain point. > [@jayjay](#): > > Dany’s vision in the House of the Undying suggests a different interpretation. > > > [@](#): > > > > After several more doors, she sees a man that looks like Viserys, but taller and with eyes of a darker purple. He turns to a woman nursing a babe and names the child Aegon. The woman asks if he will write a song, and the man replies that “He has a song. He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He turns to Daenerys then, and almost seems to see her before adding “There must be one more; the dragon has three heads.” > > I always took the man to be Rhaegar, the woman Lyanna and the child Jon. The third “head” is still iffy at this point, though. That would appear to me to be the same interpretation as **Snarky\_Kong** ’s. “His is the song of ice and fire.” His being Jon’s. That makes the two heads of the dragon referred to here Jon and Dany, the baby in the vision and the person watching the vision. The third head of the dragon is Tyrion Lannister. > [@DigitalC](#): > > Uh, no Ice refers to the white walkers. This sort of thing can have more than one meaning. Jon’s song is the song of ice and fire. The song applies just as poetically to him personally as to the coming fight. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/59 "2011-04-24T02:29:56Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > The third head of the dragon is Tyrion Lannister. I remember coming to this conclusion myself but it’s been so long that I forget why. Why is Tyrion the third head? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/60 "2011-04-24T02:35:39Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > That makes the two heads of the dragon referred to here Jon and Dany, the baby in the vision and the person watching the vision. Isn’t the baby Aegon? Did Rhaegar name two of his sons Aegon? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377.md?page=4)