# Game of Thrones: omnibus discussion thread based on knowledge of books (OPEN SPOILERS) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 22, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377 "2011-04-22T17:16:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/581 "2011-05-11T20:19:48Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Of course, that’s the irony of Brienne’s situation. She actually _believes_ in all the chivalric virtues and ideals, though she can’t (lawfully) become a knight, while the actual knights seem to be, by and large with some exceptions, loutish thugs for whom their knighthood is just an excuse to treat everyone badly. Precisely. She’s sort of the opposite of Groucho Marx: she ardently wishes to become a member of a club that will never have her, and for which she’s much too good anyway (although Renly did, much to his credit, name her to his Kingsguard). And I agree with the criticism of Stannis by **Merijeek**. He _thinks_ he’s being good, but he’s too driven and narrow-minded to see that he’s using evil means to win the crown of Westeros. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/582 "2011-05-11T21:30:40Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Local lords in Westeros seem to have a lot of discretion in keeping the King’s peace. In one of the later books, Brienne visited a sea-town lord who was meting out justice to various low-level thieves and crooks as he sat down at the wharf. He was able to order fingers chopped off and money to change hands pretty much as he saw fit… I’m pretty sure this was Sam’s dad - Randyll Tarly in _A Feast for Crows_. As for the list of ‘good characters’ I think you could make a strong argument that Daenrys belongs on the list. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/583 "2011-05-11T21:47:15Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > I’m pretty sure this was Sam’s dad - Randyll Tarly in _A Feast for Crows_. > > As for the list of ‘good characters’ I think you could make a strong argument that Daenrys belongs on the list. Hmmm…possibly. She certainly got more of the Rhaegar-type Targaryen genes (as opposed to Viserys having gotten more of the Aerys-type Targaryen genes). She’s a little too expedient in reaching her (otherwise admirable) goals for me to unhesitatingly put her in the “mostly good” list. We will likely get a better insight in DwD when it comes out. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/584 "2011-05-11T21:56:53Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > I think Myrcella is going to end up being twisted by what’s happened to her in Dorne. It’ll be worse than that. In all likelihood, Myrcella’s a goner because of the prophecy which, up to this point, has come true in almost (?) every detail. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/585 "2011-05-11T21:57:16Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Hmmm…possibly. She certainly got more of the Rhaegar-type Targaryen genes (as opposed to Viserys having gotten more of the Aerys-type Targaryen genes). She’s a little too expedient in reaching her (otherwise admirable) goals for me to unhesitatingly put her in the “mostly good” list. We will likely get a better insight in DwD when it comes out. Yeah, the moment when she buys the Unsullied was one of the best in the books, IMO. Man, in the TV show I’m soooo looking forward to Belwas The Strong. How far off is he? > [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > It’ll be worse than that. In all likelihood, Myrcella’s a goner because of the prophecy which, up to this point, has come true in almost (?) every detail. Apparently I’m going to have to reread. Anyway, what’s the prophecy? Don’t remember… -Joe ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/586 "2011-05-11T22:05:21Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Apparently I’m going to have to reread. Anyway, what’s the prophecy? Don’t remember… As a child, she and a friend meet a woman (a magei (?)) who tells their fortune. The friend was going to die very soon. Cersei would marry a king. He would have 16 kids, she would have three, and all three would die before she was killed by the valquanar (I’m sure I spelled that wrong). The friend did, indeed die very soon afterward. Cersei did marry a king We don’t know how many kids Robert had, but 16 sounds about right. She had three children. One(Joffrey) has already died. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/587 "2011-05-11T22:08:40Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > As a child, she and a friend meet a woman (a magei (?)) who tells their fortune. The friend was going to die very soon. Cersei would marry a king. He would have 16 kids, she would have three, and all three would die before she was killed by the valquanar (I’m sure I spelled that wrong). > > The friend did, indeed die very soon afterward. > Cersei did marry a king > We don’t know how many kids Robert had, but 16 sounds about right. > She had three children. > One(Joffrey) has already died. Well, that sucks for Tommen and Myrcella. Are valquanar Targaryen or dragons? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/588 "2011-05-11T22:14:10Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Well, that sucks for Tommen and Myrcella. Are valquanar Targaryen or dragons? Neither. IIRC, it means “younger brother.” Take your pick. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/589 "2011-05-11T22:28:10Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > Neither. IIRC, it means “younger brother.” Take your pick. > > Zev Steinhardt You know, I just had an insight into this that hadn’t hit me before, to the point where I actually went to search and check some facts. Cersei is fixated on the idea that the valquanar is Tyrion…but Jaime was born AFTER Cersei. I can see that scenario playing out. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/590 "2011-05-11T22:30:42Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > You know, I just had an insight into this that hadn’t hit me before, to the point where I actually went to search and check some facts. Cersei is fixated on the idea that the valquanar is Tyrion…but Jaime was born AFTER Cersei. I can see that scenario playing out. Yeah, that prophesy is the reason for her utter hate of Tyrion and it is more than likely extremely misplaced. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/591 "2011-05-11T22:32:22Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > You know, I just had an insight into this that hadn’t hit me before, to the point where I actually went to search and check some facts. Cersei is fixated on the idea that the valquanar is Tyrion…but Jaime was born AFTER Cersei. I can see that scenario playing out. I found Maggy the Frog’s prophecy. Take careful note of the wording (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > “And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his **hands** about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.” Assuming GRRM is going to be faithful to what he wrote, one of two scenarios have to happen: 1. Tyrion strangles Cersei 2. Jamie grows a new hand and strangles Cersei (or perhaps uses his golden hand?) Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/592 "2011-05-11T22:36:06Z")
“Valonquar”, btw…I just Googled to confirm the spelling. The only problem with Jaime being the valonquar is that the prophecy says that he will put his hand_s_ around her throat. Sorry, **zev** …this was in editing mode so long while I googled the prophecy and the spelling of valonquar that I missed that you’d posted. ETA: Hmmm…it could also be that it needn’t be _Cersei’s_ valonquar…Sandor is the younger brother among the Cleganes, right? For that matter, if we go outside it needing to be HER family, we’ve got living Starks who are the younger sons. And if Jon is R&L’s, he’s the deceased Aegon’s younger brother, right? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/593 "2011-05-11T22:38:36Z")
Or he uses his golden hand? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/594 "2011-05-11T22:43:09Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > ETA: Hmmm…it could also be that it needn’t be _Cersei’s_ valonquar…Sandor is the younger brother among the Cleganes, right? For that matter, if we go outside it needing to be HER family, we’ve got living Starks who are the younger sons. And if Jon is R&L’s, he’s the deceased Aegon’s younger brother, right? Possible. But considering the rest of the prophecy was about Cersei (her kids, her husband), I don’t see any compelling reason to say that it’s not her brother. Of course, I’ll defer to what GRRM thinks on the matter. 😃 Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/595 "2011-05-11T22:44:20Z")
Dany is planning on making war on hundreds of thousands of people for her pride. She’s not good. Tyrion murdered his father. He’s not good. At least nowhere near as good as Jon or Sam. Jamie’s more moral act of his entire life was when he broke a vow. Vow’s don’t mean anything if they prevent you from acting in the right way. ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/596 "2011-05-11T23:25:55Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Dany is planning on making war on hundreds of thousands of people for her pride. She’s not good. > > Tyrion murdered his father. He’s not good. > > At least nowhere near as good as Jon or Sam. > > Jamie’s more moral act of his entire life was when he broke a vow. Vow’s don’t mean anything if they prevent you from acting in the right way. Tyrion’s father was a monster and the world is better off without him. I don’t have the ability to read that scene and not be utterly on Tyrion’s side in that. Another tangent: I’ve just hit the point in my re-read where Khal Drogo’s khalasar attacks the “lamb men” and Dany rescues the raped women including Mirri Maz Duur. Then she finds out the woman has studied in Asshai (which has an awful reputation) and she’s the priestess/healer for the village which has just been destroyed… and Dany INSISTS on letting this woman treat Drogo’s wounds. Seriously, what the hell? Why in the WORLD would Dany think that Mirri would actually happily treat Drogo’s wound? Why WOULDN’T she have poisoned him and otherwise harmed him? What else does she really have to lose? Dany, like Eddard, Sansa and Cat, seems to suffer from absolutely fatal naivete that’s amazing to witness. When they put on their stupid hat, they really strap it on! ☹ ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/597 "2011-05-12T00:06:37Z")
> [@Feyrat](#): > > Tyrion’s father was a monster and the world is better off without him. I don’t have the ability to read that scene and not be utterly on Tyrion’s side in that. > > Another tangent: I’ve just hit the point in my re-read where Khal Drogo’s khalasar attacks the “lamb men” and Dany rescues the raped women including Mirri Maz Duur. Then she finds out the woman has studied in Asshai (which has an awful reputation) and she’s the priestess/healer for the village which has just been destroyed… and Dany INSISTS on letting this woman treat Drogo’s wounds. Seriously, what the hell? Why in the WORLD would Dany think that Mirri would actually happily treat Drogo’s wound? Why WOULDN’T she have poisoned him and otherwise harmed him? What else does she really have to lose? > > Dany, like Eddard, Sansa and Cat, seems to suffer from absolutely fatal naivete that’s amazing to witness. When they put on their stupid hat, they really strap it on! ☹ Ditto. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/598 "2011-05-12T00:31:28Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Dany is planning on making war on hundreds of thousands of people for her pride. She’s not good. For her pride? Nonsense. She’s fighting for survival. The whole point of the game of thrones is to survive; being king or queen just means you’ve got a better shot at it than a peasant farmer in the riverlands, a begger in Flea Bottom, or some hedge knight. That’s what made Eddard’s “honor” so contemptible. Varys, Littlefinger, AND Cersei gave him more than enough advance warning that acting solely in the interests of what he felt was honorable was foolhardy, that nobody was playing by the same rules. Yet he stubbornly put his family and the entire realm in danger. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/599 "2011-05-12T00:35:22Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > For her pride? Nonsense. She’s fighting for survival. The whole point of the game of thrones is to survive; being king or queen just means you’ve got a better shot at it than a peasant farmer in the riverlands, a begger in Flea Bottom, or some hedge knight. She has to invade places to survive? She’s extremely rich and has to cause the deaths of thousands of people to survive? This is demonstrably false. She has people offer to take care of her for the rest of her life. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/600 "2011-05-12T00:39:15Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > She has to invade places to survive? She’s extremely rich and has to cause the deaths of thousands of people to survive? This is demonstrably false. She has people offer to take care of her for the rest of her life. She’s “rich” only insofar as she can induce people to follow her. When it was just her and Viserys, she had nothing. When Khal Drogo fell from his horse, she had nothing. After Khal Drogo died, all she had was her dragon babies and her will to lead. If she doesn’t lead them, another khal will swallow them up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377.md?page=31)