# Game of Thrones: omnibus discussion thread based on knowledge of books (OPEN SPOILERS) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 22, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377 "2011-04-22T17:16:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/681 "2011-05-15T04:27:34Z")
Have any of the books explained how the Targaryens got their ability to control dragons? ---
**Author:** ![Spectralist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Spectralist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectralist)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/682 "2011-05-15T05:40:38Z")
No we don’t even know if it’s supernatural or just some sort of training or trick. Many suspect it’s the latter and that Tyrion knows it as he’s been said to be reading books on dragons. Minor spoiler from some of the Dance chapters that have been released throughout the past few years: Dany seems to be having a lot of trouble keeping the dragons in control so it doesn’t seem to be an inherent trait of the Targaryans. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/683 "2011-05-16T04:18:04Z")
Another excellent episode tonight. Is the series tracking the books’ timelines pretty closely. I can tell from this thread that there’s tons of history and and character development that the series hasn’t touched on. But I can’t tell if the extra detail is introduced (in the books) through some kind of narrative flashbacks, or whether the TV series picks up the saga mid-stream and just bypasses much of of it. I have to say that the TV show is thoroughly enjoyable and comprehensible on its own. Until this week, I thought King Robert was a rather pitiful figure, an aging king losing his strength and his friends through intrigue. Now I think that even if this is true, he’s an SOB who deserves whatever he gets. And I’m far more sympathetic to the queen than I was. I wonder who they’ll convince me to despise next episode? Ooh, and the nutty sister… just plain creepy. And she was portrayed as a reliable reporter earlier. Well… at least Ned’s wife had no doubts about her, though Ned seemed a but more hesitant. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/684 "2011-05-16T04:21:46Z")
In the books you learn things along the way, as they’re filled in. The show is following the books pretty well as far as major plot points go. A lot of the stuff that people are discussing they learned later on in the books. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/685 "2011-05-16T04:27:08Z")
That’s good to know. I had wondered if the TV series started out with book two or three of a multi-volume book series. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/686 "2011-05-16T04:43:07Z")
Where are they going in making Cersei so sympathetic? I remember Robert confessing that he’s forgotten what Lyanna looked like, but I don’t remember Cersei telling him that she once had feelings for him. And unless it’s in subsequent books, Cersei and Robert didn’t have a child who died. They’re making her into a neglected wife and excusing her relationship with her brother. It works for the show, but it’s pretty far removed from the books. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/687 "2011-05-16T04:52:57Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Where are they going in making Cersei so sympathetic? I remember Robert confessing that he’s forgotten what Lyanna looked like, but I don’t remember Cersei telling him that she once had feelings for him. > > And unless it’s in subsequent books, Cersei and Robert didn’t have a child who died. They’re making her into a neglected wife and excusing her relationship with her brother. > > It works for the show, but it’s pretty far removed from the books. In the books Cersei and Robert had a child that she aborted because she couldn’t stand the thought of having a kid with him. From the description of his death that she gave Cat i think they upgraded her abortion to infanticide. Your perception of some characters is supposed to change completely once they start getting their own point of view chapters, the first book is mostly (or completely, i don’t remember) Starks. Even some of the Lannisters start looking decent once the story switches to them. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Credible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a8b319/32.png) [@Justin\_Credible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Credible)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/688 "2011-05-16T06:13:40Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > Also, here’s a Game of Thrones [relationship infographic](http://www.blameitonthevoices.com/2011/05/infographic-relationships-in-game-of.html). I love the star in quotes between Loras and Renly. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/689 "2011-05-16T10:44:08Z")
Cersei really isn’t that bad in the huge scheme of things. There’s a taboo against incest, but it’s better than killing people. She didn’t push Bran and didn’t want it done. She cheats on her Husband, but he did it first. He’s physically abusive. She has him killed, but it’s to protect the lives of her children. She’s not a likeable character, but she’s no Mountain. The Hound’s a fan favorite, but a worse person, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/690 "2011-05-16T10:57:36Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > That’s good to know. I had wondered if the TV series started out with book two or three of a multi-volume book series. For readers of the books, there are still some questions about what actually happened during the War that put Robert on the Throne. We’ve heard stories & “seen” memories of point of view characters who were involved. But we’re still discovering the full truth about that past. (Not to mention the more distant past–when Dragons thrived. Or even before Dragons came to Westeros.) Fans of the series have gathered what’s known & gone over it in great detail. Those long delays between books have given them lots of time! A few conclusions have been reached that might or might not be confirmed in the books to come. ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/691 "2011-05-16T12:15:12Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Cersei really isn’t that bad in the huge scheme of things. There’s a taboo against incest, but it’s better than killing people. She didn’t push Bran and didn’t want it done. She cheats on her Husband, but he did it first. He’s physically abusive. She has him killed, but it’s to protect the lives of her children. > > She’s not a likeable character, but she’s no Mountain. The Hound’s a fan favorite, but a worse person, IMO. Boy I have to disagree there. So far, Cersei is one of the very few characters I pin as flat-out, one-sided evil. I don’t believe for a minute that she didn’t want Bran killed; her only regret there is that he lived after the fall. She doesn’t just cheat on her husband - she actively refuses his bed, aborts his child, and has incestuous children with her brother and schemes and kills to hide their heritage from the world and make sure they get the throne. She plots to kill her husband, in part to protect the lives of her children but mostly to further her own ambitions and make sure she’s not caught in the web she’s woven. We might find out a little more info to make her more sympathetic, as she had a few chapters of her own in the last book, but from my perspective right now, if she’s not the most truly evil person in the book, she’s damn close. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/692 "2011-05-16T12:23:07Z")
Joffrey? Any of the brave companions? Walder Frey? Gregor? I hate her, but 90% of what you said is just her protecting her family. ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/693 "2011-05-16T14:16:45Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Joffrey? Any of the brave companions? Walder Frey? Gregor? > > I hate her, but 90% of what you said is just her protecting her family. “Protecting her family” and “being horribly evil” are not mutually exclusive. Cat protects her family as well, sometimes with stupid and bad means, but I don’t see the evil in her that I see in Cersei. And really, it’s not all protecting her family. She’s screwing her brother and passing off incestuous children as heirs to the realm! If she hadn’t screwed her brother in the first place, or hidden away/aborted the kids, there’d be no “protecting the family” needed. She did a horrible thing and she’s fine with killing people and screwing the entire realm just to keep her and her family in power. That’s not just maternal love. Plus, if she’s such a family woman, why’d she abort Robert’s kid? Obviously it’s not _all_ her family she wants to protect. And let’s not forget, Tyrion is part of her family as well, and she’d kill him in a heartbeat if she could. And yeah, Joffrey is worse. But he’s not around long enough to really worry about, and a lot of his evilness is from his mother. Walder Frey? Not so evil in my book. Yeah, the red wedding was bad, but other than that, he was more mean than evil. Gregor? Definitely up there as far as evil, but so far not a main character, so he simply doesn’t get the screen/book time that Cersei and her evilness does. Same with the brave companions. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/694 "2011-05-16T14:16:46Z")
Leaving only 10% pure evil. I agree she wanted the kid dead. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/695 "2011-05-16T14:20:49Z")
She had kids with someone she loves and doesn’t want them killed. Meh. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/696 "2011-05-16T14:22:38Z")
Forget kids. Kill 'em all if you want. But she ordered the death of an innocent dog! It don’t get no more evil. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/697 "2011-05-16T14:34:29Z")
Oh right, she’s a total bitch. However if an author wanted to tell her story, I don’t think it’d be hard to make her much more sympathetic. Assume Jaime wasn’t her brother for a minute, she’d be viewed much differently. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/698 "2011-05-16T14:42:43Z")
But Cersai kept Jaime from bonding with Joffrey; she was afraid somebody might catch on. Then she raised him as a sadistic little monster. (Maybe he came up with the sadism on his own, but she did nothing to correct him.) She’s not just close to her kids because she “loves” them. But because of their dynastic futures. And is her “love” for Jaime really the best thing for _his_ future? If he was just her lover on the side, they could hope to be together some day. As it is, she has the power & luxurious life of a Queen & her handsome twin in her bed (or up against a wall) whenever they get the opportunity. And, as the story progresses, she gets quite a few new “lovers.” ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/699 "2011-05-16T14:49:57Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Oh right, she’s a total bitch. However if an author wanted to tell her story, I don’t think it’d be hard to make her much more sympathetic. Assume Jaime wasn’t her brother for a minute, she’d be viewed much differently. I agree. Then she would have been an accessory after the fact to an attempted murder of a child with her _non_-incestuous lover. And she still would’ve killed the damn dog! EEEEEVVVVVVELLLL! ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/700 "2011-05-16T14:57:48Z")
Is it me, or is the show giving away stuff sooner/more clearly than the books? I read the books, thinking “Really? everyone buys Margaery’s story that she’s a virgin?” and only later online read that Renly was gay (and specifically gay for Loras). Was it really as clear in the books as it was in last night’s episode and I somehow missed it? (to be fair there were a lot of characters to keep track of, and neither Renly nor Loras seemed very important at first, so I could have forgotten it.) Also, I thought the identity of the men Arya overhears was kept vague as well. here, it was clearly Varys and Illyrio. Another case of me being dense? or are they really being more forthcoming in the show? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377.md?page=36)