# Game of Thrones: omnibus discussion thread based on knowledge of books (OPEN SPOILERS) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 22, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377 "2011-04-22T17:16:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/701 "2011-05-16T15:02:40Z")
> [@gonzoron](#): > > Also, I thought the identity of the men Arya overhears was kept vague as well. here, it was clearly Varys and Illyrio. Another case of me being dense? or are they really being more forthcoming in the show? It had to be worked out by the readers with clues, which could eventually be done (by people with more time than me). I believe, though, that technically the identity of the second man (not-Varys) was never 100% certain, there was always some wiggle room where it might not have been Illiryo. Now, though, it was 100% clear. Like Renly and Loras, stuff could have been worked out through comments (I’ll stick my sword where even Renly couldn’t have found it), but I don’t think that it was ever completely clear this early on. And certainly no slurping noises… -Joe ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/702 "2011-05-16T15:03:55Z")
> [@Athena](#): > > “Protecting her family” and “being horribly evil” are not mutually exclusive. Cat protects her family as well, sometimes with stupid and bad means, but I don’t see the evil in her that I see in Cersei. Not yet, anyway. > [@](#): > > Walder Frey? Not so evil in my book. Yeah, the red wedding was bad, but other than that, he was more mean than evil. Yeah…I resented the hell out of him for the stab in the back that was the Red Wedding, but on reflection, Robb was stupid to alienate (and, basically, mortally insult) the Freys by marrying that nobody ninny instead of a Twins daughter. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/703 "2011-05-16T15:06:03Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I agree. Then she would have been an accessory after the fact to an attempted murder of a child with her _non_-incestuous lover. And she still would’ve killed the damn dog! > > EEEEEVVVVVVELLLL! God damn it, I’m defending Cersei, what’s the world coming to? So she’s at fault for what her lover does? What could she have done after that point to make it better? Telling anyone anything about it ends with her dead. The wolf… hmm. They’re known to be dangerous animals. One just attacked her son. If your child had just been mauled by a pitbull (yeah, they’re not bad, lay off pit lovers), and there was another one there… Well, stupid, overreacting, not nice, etc., but there’s a twinge of understanding. Still hate her, but she’s not in the top 10 of most evil characters. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/704 "2011-05-16T15:07:11Z")
> [@gonzoron](#): > > Is it me, or is the show giving away stuff sooner/more clearly than the books? I read the books, thinking “Really? everyone buys Margaery’s story that she’s a virgin?” and only later online read that Renly was gay (and specifically gay for Loras). Was it really as clear in the books as it was in last night’s episode and I somehow missed it? (to be fair there were a lot of characters to keep track of, and neither Renly nor Loras seemed very important at first, so I could have forgotten it.) > > Also, I thought the identity of the men Arya overhears was kept vague as well. here, it was clearly Varys and Illyrio. Another case of me being dense? or are they really being more forthcoming in the show? You should know better than me if you’ve read the books, but it makes a lot of sense. The TV series doesn’t have the time (or the narrator) to drop hints and inferences that will eventually lead the viewer to some deeper understanding. I was going to say that in television, you can’t go back and watch a scene again after seeing a later scene that suggests you missed something earlier – not like you could skip back a few chapters in a book at least. But that’s no longer true. With DVRs, VCRs, On Demand and whatever else, you can return to any moment and replay it at will. Actually, I’m gonna start a new thread on this subject… ---
**Author:** ![Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swords_to_Plowshares)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/705 "2011-05-16T15:11:08Z")
There were a lot of “wink, wink, say no more” hints to Loras and Renly in the books. Jaime makes some comment about it when threatening Loras in book 3, for example. “I’ll shove my sword so far up your ass it’ll reach some place Renly never found.” ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/706 "2011-05-16T15:25:44Z")
> [@gonzoron](#): > > Also, I thought the identity of the men Arya overhears was kept vague as well. here, it was clearly Varys and Illyrio. Another case of me being dense? or are they really being more forthcoming in the show? They are making small changes as they go along, usually to make things more obvious, which they pretty much have to do given the constraints of time and medium. In the scene you’re talking about, the TV version has Arya telling Ned about the room with the dragon skulls, and he appears to take her warning seriously. In the book, she talked about the room with monsters, and Ned laughed everything off as something she was imagining. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/707 "2011-05-16T15:36:16Z")
> [@gonzoron](#): > > Also, I thought the identity of the men Arya overhears was kept vague as well. here, it was clearly Varys and Illyrio. Another case of me being dense? or are they really being more forthcoming in the show? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/708 "2011-05-16T15:47:41Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > God damn it, I’m defending Cersei, what’s the world coming to? I can see why you are not satisfied with the sign “EVIL” nailed to her head (well, you might ..) but would you agree to call her one of the major destructive forces in the books? Whatever Cersei gets under way, it always seems to make matters worse, regardless of her intentions. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/709 "2011-05-16T16:08:30Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > I can see why you are not satisfied with the sign “EVIL” nailed to her head (well, you might ..) but would you agree to call her one of the major destructive forces in the books? Whatever Cersei gets under way, it always seems to make matters worse, regardless of her intentions. Oh, absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/710 "2011-05-16T16:13:15Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Huh? He was saying that in the book it wasn’t obvious who the two men were who were having the conversation in the room with the skulls. In the TV show it was 100% clear it was Varys and Illyrio. And as for Ned taking her seriously in the show and not in the book, well, that’s a consequence of aging her three years. She’d have sounded like a complete idiot if she was a ten or twelve year-old talking about it. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/711 "2011-05-16T16:14:50Z")
Cersei merits some pity because all she wants is to be happy, and being with Jaime makes her happy, yet she must deal with her duties as a Lannister and the expectations that the society places on women. She probably feels like she can never truly get her way and is frustrated at having to sneak around and be cunning. > [@Merijeek](#): > > He was saying that in the book it wasn’t obvious who the two men were who were having the conversation in the room with the skulls. In the TV show it was 100% clear it was Varys and Illyrio. Ah, I didn’t realize that was Illyrio. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/712 "2011-05-16T16:29:06Z")
Yeah, Cersei is pretty damn evil. Her primary concerns are (1) seeing her kids take the throne and (2) keeping herself on top of the power structure. She’s absolutely ruthless in pursuing these two goals. She knows her and Jaime’s kids aren’t really entitled to rule, she either aborted or killed her and Robert’s sole legitimate heir, and her only regret about Bran’s fall is that he wasn’t killed by it. By scheming to have her own husband and king killed she bears a very large share of responsibility for the “clash of kings” that has killed, wounded or displaced tens if not hundreds of thousands. Evil, evil, evil. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/713 "2011-05-16T16:30:12Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Cersei merits some pity because all she wants is to be happy, and being with Jaime makes her happy, yet she must deal with her duties as a Lannister and the expectations that the society places on women. She probably feels like she can never truly get her way and is frustrated at having to sneak around and be cunning. Ok, I’ll disagree and toss my hat into the ring with those who think Cersei is plain ol’ evil. I do think she loves Jaime, but not nearly as much as he loves her. She would have gladly forgotten all about him if it would have meant she could have Rhaegar. Ok, she wasn’t completely on board with shoving Bran out the window (so she claims), but she didn’t put up much complaint, either. The clincher is her treatment of Margaery, who probably is no angel either. But trumping up charges of adultery for no real reason other than she _thinks_ that Margaery might be trying to gain the favor of Tommen (her husband, by the way)…that’s treading into psychotic evil territory. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/714 "2011-05-16T17:21:58Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > I hate her, but 90% of what you said is just her protecting her family. When the Hound is the nicest guy in the inner circle, that’s a pretty rotten family. ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/715 "2011-05-16T17:22:12Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > He was saying that in the book it wasn’t obvious who the two men were who were having the conversation in the room with the skulls. In the TV show it was 100% clear it was Varys and Illyrio. > > And as for Ned taking her seriously in the show and not in the book, well, that’s a consequence of aging her three years. She’d have sounded like a complete idiot if she was a ten or twelve year-old talking about it. > > -Joe > [@brocks](#): > > They are making small changes as they go along, usually to make things more obvious, which they pretty much have to do given the constraints of time and medium. > > In the scene you’re talking about, the TV version has Arya telling Ned about the room with the dragon skulls, and he appears to take her warning seriously. In the book, she talked about the room with monsters, and Ned laughed everything off as something she was imagining. Was anyone else annoyed that the dragon skulls weren’t black? :-/ The other reason that Arya wasn’t taken seriously is that one of them me refers to the other as “a wizard” and Arya takes that seriously and tells her father an actual mage is trying to kill him. And I don’t think she’s look any stupider telling her father THAT as an 11 year old, honestly, she’s just repeating what she heard. ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/716 "2011-05-16T17:26:06Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Ok, she wasn’t completely on board with shoving Bran out the window (so she claims), but she didn’t put up much complaint, either. I think it’s pretty clear that Cersei was not only on board with shoving Bran, but it was her idea, and indeed, she’d make Jaime’s life hell had he not done it. From the book (Bran’s perspective): > [@](#): > > “He _saw_ us,” the woman said shrilly. > > “So he did,” the man said. > > Bran’s fingers started to slip. He grabbed the ledge with his other hand. Fingernails dug into unyielding stone. The man reached down. “Take my hand,” he said “Before you fall.” > > Bran seized his hand and held on tight with all his strength. The man yanked him up to the ledge. “What are you doing?” the woman demanded. > > The man ignored her. He was very strong. He stood Bran up on the sill. “How old are you, boy?” > > “Seven,” Bran said, shaking with relief. His fingers had dug deep gouges in the man’s forearms. He let go sheepishly. > > The man looked over at the woman. “The things I do for love,” he said with loathing. He gave Bran a shove. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/717 "2011-05-16T17:33:12Z")
> [@Feyrat](#): > > Was anyone else annoyed that the dragon skulls weren’t black? :-/ Probably would be hard for the audience to tell what they’re supposed to be if they made them black. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/718 "2011-05-16T17:46:15Z")
Yeah, that scene was plenty dark to begin with. I almost wondered if something was happening in the lower-left foreground of the screen in the three or four seconds before the scene shifted from the dungeons. Almost thought I saw something there as Arya was finding her way out. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/719 "2011-05-16T17:48:07Z")
Has Bran genuinely forgotten what happened, or is he keeping his mouth shut to keep people alive? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/720 "2011-05-16T18:01:52Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Has Bran genuinely forgotten what happened, or is he keeping his mouth shut to keep people alive? He forgot. If i am not mistaken he eventually remembers a blonde guy, but by that time it does not really matter anymore. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377.md?page=37)