# Game of Thrones: omnibus discussion thread based on knowledge of books (OPEN SPOILERS) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 22, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377 "2011-04-22T17:16:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/741 "2011-05-17T13:23:53Z")
All I can come up with, about the general fear of the Targaryens, is that someone might not really think that the dragons are dead. I mean, at this point, they’ve been gone for hundreds of years, right? Or at least 100; nobody really brings that up, but that seems the biggest fear. I really didn’t ever see a shred of support for them on the mainland. Still don’t understand the bigger fear for the female over the male. He can breed, too. There’s been nothing to indicate women are better suited to controlling dragons than males, that the MAINLAND has seen; there just seems to be a big hole in the plot. Yes, yes, we know Viserys bites it, but that really doesn’t justify the earlier setup of how much more afraid everyone is of an unborn child than two royal siblings. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/742 "2011-05-17T13:29:40Z")
> [@Taomist](#): > > All I can come up with, about the general fear of the Targaryens, is that someone might not really think that the dragons are dead. I mean, at this point, they’ve been gone for hundreds of years, right? Or at least 100; nobody really brings that up, but that seems the biggest fear. I really didn’t ever see a shred of support for them on the mainland. Varys. As far as we know, he’s been arranging a lot of this to provide support for them back home. > [@Taomist](#): > > Still don’t understand the bigger fear for the female over the male. He can breed, too. There’s been nothing to indicate women are better suited to controlling dragons than males, that the MAINLAND has seen; there just seems to be a big hole in the plot. Yes, yes, we know Viserys bites it, but that really doesn’t justify the earlier setup of how much more afraid everyone is of an unborn child than two royal siblings. Viserys may be a bit of a threat, but any and all power Viserys has right now goes Viserys-\>Dany-\>Drogo. Remove Dany and Viserys has no access to power. Remove Viserys and Dany still has access to power. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/743 "2011-05-17T13:47:03Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Did everybody in the Council really see the invasion as a serious threat? They could have just been humoring Robert’s hatred of everything Targaryen. (For a variety of nefarious reasons, of course.) Good point, don’t know. At least, it appears as if the supporters of a Targaryen return considered an invasion a valid enough option to barter away one of the two surviving members of the family to a man who could not possibly have been a suitable choice under different circumstances. > [@Merijeek](#): > > All of this is a hell of a lot more expensive than hiring an assassin. Agreed, while Robert is usually shown as stupid and short-sighted, he was right to assassinate the last Targaryens. It should have happened a decade or more ago. > [@AndyPolley](#): > > As for the small council & the Dothraki. I got the impression that they are more afraid of the eventual return to power of the Targaryens than anything else. It might take 10-20 years before Dany’s child leads 100,000 Dothraki warriors across the Narrow Sea, but it’s still a frightening thought. Ah, you know, dragons? - No problem. Ice zombies? Why not. The Wall? It’s all magic. But the idea of an invasion of 100,000 horse men sailing across not just a channel but across a sea - beyond belief. I find the impossible much easier to gulp than the infeasable. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/744 "2011-05-17T13:54:25Z")
> [@Taomist](#): > > Yes, yes, we know Viserys bites it, but that really doesn’t justify the earlier setup of how much more afraid everyone is of an unborn child than two royal siblings. It’s because the child would be Dothraki and Targaryen and therefore more likely to try to bring the horde across the Narrow Sea. They aren’t worried about an invasion any time soon, they are worried about when the child takes Drogo’s place as the leader of the Dothraki and then comes for the Iron Throne. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/745 "2011-05-17T13:59:10Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > It would be awesomely hilarious of he isn’t bad at all and was actually running some sort of underground railroad to get political prisoners away from Cersei. > > -Joe You mean Frankenprisoners? He is the one who is working on Gregor, right? Oh, and it’s “infeas **i** ble” (see my previous post), of course (damn). ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/746 "2011-05-17T14:20:12Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > You mean Frankenprisoners? > > He is the one who is working on Gregor, right? Yup. But I don’t think she’s SEEN the Frankenprisoners. So, I just thought it would be funny if Qyburn was just sneaking them out and lying to her. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/747 "2011-05-17T15:08:05Z")
> [@Taomist](#): > > there just seems to be a big hole in the plot. Yes, yes, we know Viserys bites it, but that really doesn’t justify the earlier setup of how much more afraid everyone is of an unborn child than two royal siblings. Speaking of plot holes, I’m rereading the series, and I’m just at the point in ACOK where Tyrion discovers that Grand Maester Pycelle has been Cersei’s creature for a long time. Pycelle confesses to Tyrion that (without quibbling about who actually administered the poison) he murdered Jon Arryn, for the good of the kingdom, when Jon learned Cersei’s incest. Given that, WHY ON EARTH did Pycelle, at the first opportunity, give Ned the vital clue about the secret? From AGOT: “What can you tell me of his final illness?” The Grand Maester spread his hands in a gesture of helpless sorrow. “He came to me one day asking after a certain book, as hale and healthy as ever, though it did seem to me that something was troubling him deeply. The next morning he was twisted over in pain, too sick to rise from bed. " And then he GIVES Ned the book, which describes the lords, ladies, and children of the great houses, going back centuries. Why didn’t he burn the book, if it meant death to anyone who borrowed it? Why even mention it to Ned, let alone in such a way that Stevie Wonder could see that it was connected to Jon’s death? Maybe Ned would have found out about the incest eventually, but Pycelle pretty much forced the knowledge on him. Why would he do that? Knowing the kind of man Ned was, and how close he was to Robert, why would he go out of his way to ensure that Ned learned of the secret that would destroy Cersei, when he had just killed Ned’s predecessor to protect her? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/748 "2011-05-17T15:33:47Z")
Because he didn’t realize what the book meant? Pycelle is damn near senile. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/749 "2011-05-17T15:57:48Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Because he didn’t realize what the book meant? Pycelle is damn near senile. He obviously knew what the book meant when he loaned it to Jon. And I haven’t seen any signs of senility. Cowardice and avarice, yes, but not senility. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/750 "2011-05-17T16:02:53Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Because he didn’t realize what the book meant? Pycelle is damn near senile. Can’t be it. Well, probably not. I’m thinking that he is trying to accelerate the coming conflict between Stark and Lannister. Maybe push someone short-sighted to neutralize Stark while the family was split up and the strong one in their family could be easily taken. Or, is he in with Illyrio and Varys and just trying to cripple the realm and bring back the Targaryens? I believe he was Maester back then too. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/751 "2011-05-17T16:08:07Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Or, is he in with Illyrio and Varys and just trying to cripple the realm and bring back the Targaryens? I believe he was Maester back then too. > > -Joe I was about to post this, yeah. It’s not so much that he’s pro-Lannister or anti-Stark, he’s just trying to nudge the whole thing off the edge of a cliff so that it’ll be easier for the Targaryens to come back. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/752 "2011-05-17T16:17:34Z")
Pycelle did not confess to poisoning Jon Arryn. In fact, he doesn’t know who it was but assumed it was his squire. By the end of _A Storm of Swor_ds, we know that Lysa poisoned her husband. Pycelle did admit to not putting forth his best effort in saving Arryn because he thought Cersei wanted him dead. And we assume Pycelle knew that Arryn knew about the Baratheon children, but we don’t know that Pycelle thinks Arryn learned about them from the book. Thus, I do not think Pycelle is working for Targaryans. I think he is completely under Cersei’s thumb. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/753 "2011-05-17T16:25:22Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Pycelle did not confess to poisoning Jon Arryn. In fact, he doesn’t know who it was but assumed it was his squire. By the end of _A Storm of Swor_ds, we know that Lysa poisoned her husband. Pycelle did admit to not putting forth his best effort in saving Arryn because he thought Cersei wanted him dead. And we assume Pycelle knew that Arryn knew about the Baratheon children, but we don’t know that Pycelle thinks Arryn learned about them from the book. Thus, I do not think Pycelle is working for Targaryans. I think he is completely under Cersei’s thumb. Yes, actually I could argue the exact opposite of my previous post. Assuming that Pycelle is either owned or willingly supports Cersei, and assuming that he knew about the parentage of the royal children, he could have helped whack Arryn for the sake of keeping the realm from the civil war that would have resulted from Arryn telling Robert about it. So…who knows? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/754 "2011-05-17T16:37:06Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > It would be awesomely hilarious of he isn’t bad at all and was actually running some sort of underground railroad to get political prisoners away from Cersei… That _would_ be good, and fully in keeping with GRRM’s penchant for messing with our assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![AndyPolley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@AndyPolley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndyPolley)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/755 "2011-05-17T17:22:30Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > Ah, you know, dragons? - No problem. Ice zombies? Why not. The Wall? It’s all magic. But the idea of an invasion of 100,000 horse men sailing across not just a channel but across a sea - beyond belief. I find the impossible much easier to gulp than the infeasable. Hey…I’m with you. The small council, or any of the characters in King’s Landing don’t seem to believe in magic, The Others, Snarks, Gumkins or living dragons. If I lived in a castle where there were _dragon skulls_ in the basement, I’d take the supernatural a little more seriously. I’m currently re-reading A Feast for Crows and I’m shocked at how little Cersei seems to care when she’s told about Dragons across the Narrow Sea. She simply finds it to be impossible & moves on. The thought about the Dothraki crossing the sea…It’s very unlikely, but it’s not impossible to acquire the ships needed for an invasion. In the show, Robert’s concerned about being unable to stop invading ships…like I said, unlikely but not impossible. And while the argument can be made for taking out the Targaryen kids, I’m with Ned. Do your best to not act like the guy you overthrew when possible. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/756 "2011-05-17T17:34:22Z")
The Dothraki fear any water that their horses can’t drink–that’s the official reason given for their reticence to cross the Narrow Sea, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/757 "2011-05-17T17:35:40Z")
> [@AndyPolley](#): > > The thought about the Dothraki crossing the sea…It’s very unlikely, but it’s not impossible to acquire the ships needed for an invasion. In the show, Robert’s concerned about being unable to stop invading ships…like I said, unlikely but not impossible. And while the argument can be made for taking out the Targaryen kids, I’m with Ned. Do your best to not act like the guy you overthrew when possible. To what point though? Mammoths used to run around, too. There’s even skeletons of them I can go see in museums. Doesn’t mean I’m concerned about one jumping me next time I’m in the park. I’m pretty confident that they’re extinct. Just because they used to exist doesn’t mean anyone needs to worry about them tomorrow. And when it comes to Cersei, well, she’s not the best at assimilating new information. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/758 "2011-05-17T17:52:28Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Or, is he in with Illyrio and Varys and just trying to cripple the realm and bring back the Targaryens? I believe he was Maester back then too. If that’s his motive, why let Jon and Ned die? The Lannisters would fight to retain their power no matter when the incest was discovered, so why not let Jon announce it, instead of killing him? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/759 "2011-05-17T17:56:08Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > If that’s his motive, why let Jon and Ned die? The Lannisters would fight to retain their power no matter when the incest was discovered, so why not let Jon announce it, instead of killing him? Well, if there is some sort of collusion going on, the (almost) specific line about Drogo’s horde is “the time is not yet right”. So, that’s my half-assed explanation and I’m sticking to it. Keep in mind that I’m already postulating two positions that are 180 degrees opposite! -Joe ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/760 "2011-05-17T18:01:19Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Pycelle did not confess to poisoning Jon Arryn. In fact, he doesn’t know who it was but assumed it was his squire. By the end of _A Storm of Swor_ds, we know that Lysa poisoned her husband. Pycelle did admit to not putting forth his best effort in saving Arryn because he thought Cersei wanted him dead. And we assume Pycelle knew that Arryn knew about the Baratheon children, but we don’t know that Pycelle thinks Arryn learned about them from the book. Thus, I do not think Pycelle is working for Targaryans. I think he is completely under Cersei’s thumb. As I said in my earlier post, I don’t care to quibble about who actually administered the poison. As far as I’m concerned, Pycelle confesses to killing Jon, because he thought Jon would have recovered had Pycelle not halted the effective treatment he was receiving. I think a jury would agree with me. And I can’t imagine what he thought Jon had discovered that was worth his death to Cersei, if not the incest. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377.md?page=39)