# Game of Thrones: omnibus discussion thread based on knowledge of books (OPEN SPOILERS) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 22, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377 "2011-04-22T17:16:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/801 "2011-05-19T09:16:43Z")
I thought the addition of the prophecy was interesting in Cersei’s case: sort of a chicken/egg question. Is she a bitch because that’s her destiny? Or has the prophecy turned her into a paranoid psycho? The eggs disappeared after the tragedy of Summerhall, I think. They must have had some reason to believe Dany could make them hatch (which is why I think they relied on prophecies to guide them in this). I don’t see Dany as a cardboard character. She clearly has her faults and shows flashes of her crazy father and her brother. She has a blind spot when it comes to her blood. Look how long it took her to realize that Viserys wasn’t fit to be king. She has stubbornly refused to believe Aerys deserved what she got (which is the driving force behind her ambition - that her birthright was stolen from her). But honestly I’m not very interested in a meta discussion of the books. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/802 "2011-05-19T14:05:03Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > The conspirators must have known that the dragon eggs were real and would hatch at some point. I disagree. Those eggs were fossilized, there was as much chance of them coming back to life as the dragon skulls under the red keep. They hatched by magic. The conspirators were relying on the Dothraki army and support from Dorne in the main land, not dragons. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/803 "2011-05-19T14:14:59Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I disagree. Those eggs were fossilized,(..) Ah, one of the details I did not remember. Thank you. Confirms the suspicion that the events were not planned the way they happened. Lucky break for the conspirators. Don’t say the D-word! ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/804 "2011-05-19T14:25:31Z")
Those are all valid points about the heavy-handed use of prophecies in your typical sword-and-sorcery novel, but Martin has a light enough touch - and also is not abiding by “the rules” in so many other ways, incl. the future potential of showing just how wrong the prophecies are - that I don’t really mind. Both Cersei and Dany are reacting in different ways to prophecy and that’s part of what makes it so damned interesting. I agree that, as far as we know to date, _no one_ foresaw that the dragon eggs would actually hatch. ---
**Author:** ![Enilno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58f4c7/32.png) [@Enilno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enilno)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/805 "2011-05-19T15:45:49Z")
As far as the conspiracy goes, I don’t believe it was ever in the plan to get rid of Viserys. If we believe that Doran Martell is part of the conspiracy and not a catspaw, then the plan was always to have Viserys marry Doran’s daughter, and use Dorne as the gateway for the invasion (reinvasion?) with the Dothraki’s support. I think it was mentioned somewhere that Illyrio wanted Viserys to remain with him rather than go with the Dothraki, but Viserys wouldn’t listen. As for the conspirators knowingly giving Dany the dragon eggs, remember that no one thought that she would be the one. People who have studied it, including Maester Aemon and Melacandra, all were expecting a prince, rather than a princess. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/806 "2011-05-19T15:52:20Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Those are all valid points about the heavy-handed use of prophecies in your typical sword-and-sorcery novel, but Martin has a light enough touch - and also is not abiding by “the rules” in so many other ways, incl. the future potential of showing just how wrong the prophecies are - that I don’t really mind. Both Cersei and Dany are reacting in different ways to prophecy and that’s part of what makes it so damned interesting. > > I agree that, as far as we know to date, _no one_ foresaw that the dragon eggs would actually hatch. Unless the a male dragon is called a “stallion”. Prophecies are likely, not binding. Otherwise, Drogo’s son would be preparing to mount the world. > [@Enilno](#): > > I think it was mentioned somewhere that Illyrio wanted Viserys to remain with him rather than go with the Dothraki, but Viserys wouldn’t listen. In the series you had Mormont trying to convince him to go back to Illyrio. It’s possible that was distilled from some conversations that nobody recalls offhand. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/807 "2011-05-19T15:58:37Z")
Part of the conspirators plan was marrying Viserys off to the daughter of the lord of Dorne, i forget her name but she was in fourth book. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/808 "2011-05-19T18:39:52Z")
Arianne Martell? ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/809 "2011-05-19T19:00:21Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > The Targaryen had access to eggs all the time after the last dragon died, and no one was able to make them hatch; how could the conspirators have counted on those three eggs or Dany to be different if they – or one of them – hadn’t known that things were changing on a deeper level? I don’t think it’s that no one knew how to make the dragon’s eggs hatch - I think the Targaryens killed off all their dragons too young to breed. There’s discussion of how the newer skulls in the palace are smaller and smaller and somewhat mishappen, until they’re the size of large dogs. I don’t think the Targaryens were sitting on a trove of eggs that were all dormant, I don’t think they HAD any more eggs once all the dragons died. > [@wintertime](#): > > Though I think this prophecy was in every other aspect a bad idea by Martin; IIRC (please, correct me if I’m wrong), there was no mention of such a prophecy in earlier books and she didn’t behave as if there was one ever-present in her mind. It looked to me like a late addition by the author to put out an explanation for her surprisingly rapid deterioration in AFfC – which, I guess, was originally planned to happen more gradually when the leap in time was still the basis for future books. I disagree - it’s always been obvious that Cercei absolutely hates Tyrion, and fears him a little too. When I heard about the prophesy, I had a moment of “Oh, THAT explains it!” I also think we’re giving those things too much creedence by referring to them as “prophesies.” The one about the three-heads of the dragon, sure, but Cersei’s? That was basically just a fortuneteller. I don’t know anyone who gets their palm read and calls the result a “prophesy,” even if they believe it. Whatever truth is in there, I think it’s going to play out being obviously all Cersei’s own fault for MAKING it true. Joffrey wasn’t ready to be king, was raised to be a little shit, and was totally not kept in hand. It was pretty inevitable he’d get killed, imo, especially once rival kings started popping up. And who put him in that position? Dear old mom. > [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > The eggs disappeared after the tragedy of Summerhall, I think. They must have had some reason to believe Dany could make them hatch (which is why I think they relied on prophecies to guide them in this). I disagree - the eggs were fossilized. I think they were given to her as ornaments to increase the legitimacy of Drogo’s son’s bloodline, the way that Stark let his kids keep the Dire Wolf pups. It’s the symbol of their house, but no one expects them to actually be all that useful (and honestly, most of them aren’t.) > [@Merijeek](#): > > Unless the a male dragon is called a “stallion”. > > Prophecies are likely, not binding. Otherwise, Drogo’s son would be preparing to mount the world. The books indicate that the “stallion who mounts the world” is a legend that’s been around for some time - it’s basically a messiah-myth for the Dothraki. I think it might be taking it a bit too seriously to imply that Rhaego was actually “destined” to be that Messiah, and much more likely that the dosh-kahleen were throwing their support and encouragement behind the Dothraki’s greatest Khal, who’d never had his hair cut. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/810 "2011-05-19T19:06:28Z")
Feyrat: A good analysis, but the book indicated pretty clearly that the fortuneteller was using blood magic when she told Cersei’s fortune. Given that this a world where magic exists and is getting stronger due to the dragons, I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss a prophecy, especially when Cersei has already seen a large portion of those prophecies come true. ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/811 "2011-05-19T19:10:49Z")
> [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](#): > > Feyrat: A good analysis, but the book indicated pretty clearly that the fortuneteller was using blood magic when she told Cersei’s fortune. Given that this a world where magic exists and is getting stronger due to the dragons, I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss a prophecy, especially when Cersei has already seen a large portion of those prophecies come true. Oh, it’s entirely possible, but I still think a lot of the prediction was rather broad and that Cersei is responsible for making them come true mostly on her own. I’ll admit, I DO hope Tyrion gets to strangle her though. Or Jaime. Really, either of them have a lot of reason for it. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/812 "2011-05-19T19:24:50Z")
> [@Feyrat](#): > > Oh, it’s entirely possible, but I still think a lot of the prediction was rather broad and that Cersei is responsible for making them come true mostly on her own. That she would have 3 children and that her husband would have 16 is ‘broad’? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/813 "2011-05-19T19:29:32Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > That she would have 3 children and that her husband would have 16 is ‘broad’? > > -Joe Well that would be why I said “a lot of” and not “all.” ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/814 "2011-05-19T19:42:48Z")
> [@Feyrat](#): > > Well that would be why I said “a lot of” and not “all.” My point being, someone tells Cersei’s future and gets some incredibly specific things absolutely correct. From there it’s pretty silly to say “but the other things that came true are probably just her making them happen unconsciously”. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/815 "2011-05-20T12:09:16Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I disagree. Those eggs were fossilized, there was as much chance of them coming back to life as the dragon skulls under the red keep. They hatched by magic. The conspirators were relying on the Dothraki army and support from Dorne in the main land, not dragons. Yes, but IF there was a prophecy involved (and there’s no evidence that there was, I’m just speculating) they might have given them to Dany with a wing and a prayer. Besides, it seems like an awful lot of trouble to go to just to give her a symbol of past glories. Wouldn’t it actually work as a reminder of how Targaryen have lost their link with what originally gained them the Westeros throne in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/816 "2011-05-20T12:28:57Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > Yes, but IF there was a prophecy involved (and there’s no evidence that there was, I’m just speculating) they might have given them to Dany with a wing and a prayer. Besides, it seems like an awful lot of trouble to go to just to give her a symbol of past glories. Wouldn’t it actually work as a reminder of how Targaryen have lost their link with what originally gained them the Westeros throne in the first place? This may seem like a silly question…but how do we know that the eggs were “fossilized”? Unless there’s something really definitive, I think it’s just that ‘really hard and rock-like’ is just how dragon eggs are. It’s not like a whole lot of people out there have experience with dragon eggs. My own guess is that either Illyrio didn’t know that they weren’t actually fossils, OR that he did know, he just didn’t want to be openly handing Dany (and not Viserys) potentially viable dragon eggs. “What do you mean they hatched? They were fossilized! IT’S A MIRACLE! SHE’S THE CHOSEN ONE!!!” -Joe ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/817 "2011-05-20T12:39:31Z")
I think people assumed that they had fossilized - the eggs had been around for donkeys and never hatched, so the assumption was that they had turned into fossils. But there’s never been a clear description of what a fresh dragon egg looks like. I just find it hard to believe that Illyrio would go to all that trouble to find those eggs (and it must have taken some digging - they’d probably been sold and re-sold countless times after Summerhall) just to give to Dany as a nice gift. As a symbol they’d just be a constant reminder of how House Targaryen fell from its golden days and lost the magical link they once had. Has it been established that Martell is in contact with Illyrio and Varys? I know he planned to marry Arianne to Viserys but was Illyrio in on this plan? ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/818 "2011-05-20T13:11:43Z")
> [@Feyrat](#): > > I don’t think it’s that no one knew how to make the dragon’s eggs hatch - I think the Targaryens killed off all their dragons too young to breed. Wasn’t the so called “Tragedy at Summerhall” caused by Aegon’s ill-conceived attempt to hatch dragons? I looks to me as if no one, not even the Targaryen, knew how to hatch dragons from the remaining eggs after the last one had died. > [@Feyrat](#): > > I disagree - it’s always been obvious that Cercei absolutely hates Tyrion, and fears him a little too. When I heard about the prophesy, I had a moment of “Oh, THAT explains it!” I don’t think it needed a prophecy to explain such deeply held animosity: too different, too closely related, too willing to quarrel, jealousy; and once they became rivals in the game of power, both siblings showed less and less restraint. And Tyrion’s threat in Clash of Kings (after Cersei presented the wrong whore as her hostage) should have been reason enough for her to fear him more than a bit. > [@Merijeek](#): > > My point being, someone tells Cersei’s future and gets some incredibly specific things absolutely correct. From there it’s pretty silly to say “but the other things that came true are probably just her making them happen unconsciously”. After rereading the [prophecy](http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/1827/), I see your point. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/819 "2011-05-20T13:38:06Z")
Added: Of course, if Cersei is indeed pregnant with a fourth child - as some speculate - and it will be born … 😉 Btw, was it confirmed by Martin in the story or by some statement that Robert had that exact number of children? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/820 "2011-05-20T15:41:38Z")
I don’t think so, but Robert certainly had quite a few, judging by Jon Arryn’s and Ned Stark’s sleuthing. > [@wintertime](#): > > …I don’t think it needed a prophecy to explain such deeply held animosity [between Cersei and Tyrion]: too different, too closely related, too willing to quarrel, jealousy; and once they became rivals in the game of power, both siblings showed less and less restraint… Cersei, like her father, also probably blames Tyrion for the death of her mother. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377.md?page=40) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377.md?page=42)