# Game of Thrones: omnibus discussion thread based on knowledge of books (OPEN SPOILERS) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 22, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377 "2011-04-22T17:16:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 68
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/1341 "2011-07-14T16:07:36Z")
> [@Feyrat](#): > > I thought about making a separate thread for this, but since the discussion here seems to be dying down a bit, I guess it won’t derail anyone. > > Is GRRM just messing with us? > > I’ve listened to the commentary on Pan’s Labyrinth, and Del Toro makes the comment at the death where the man’s face gets graphically beaten in with a bottle that he did that so we’d take the rest of the movie seriously. No other death in that movie is half so graphic, but it still took me 3 or 4 watchings to figure that out, because after the shock of the bottle death I covered my eyes whenever it looked like someone else was about to get it. > > Did GRRM kill off Eddard Stark to shake us up the same way? > > One of the major things I was told about this series when I picked it up - and one of the things I pass on to new people picking it up - is that “anyone can die! Main characters, good guys, protagonists - this isn’t a typical fantasy book!” And of course, the death of Eddard Stark is one of the main reasons feel the need to qualify the books that way. > > But really… considering the world they live in, the actual deaths of POV/protagonist characters are pretty much as few and far between as most fantasy series. Lots of supporting characters die, but POV characters mostly get a “tease” death - he makes you THINK he’s killing the character at the end of a chapter, but that character’s only very injured/knocked out/kidnapped or whatnot when their next chapter rolls around. > > The Red Wedding chapters are a really good example: Apparently in quick succession, Robb, Catelyn and then Arya are all killed, Robb and Catelyn at the wedding itself, Arya when the Hound hits her in the back of the head with an axe. I was truly, honestly upset for their deaths the first time I read that - knowing that Eddard had died, ANYONE could die. > > But only Robb died. Catelyn was brought back to life by the red priest, and Arya was only knocked out with the flat of the axe. > > GRRM does this all the time - makes us THINK he’s killing a character for real, but then they turn up again later, in mortal peril of some sort, but alive. > > He killed Eddard just to make us THINK this was a book where “anyone can die” seriously, but once he’s convinced us, he doesn’t really need to do it again, does he? > > I find while I reading DWD that I’m taking any mortal peril a character is in with much less upset and much more of a grain of salt than I have in previous books. I guess the “lesson” of Eddard is starting to wear off. I don’t really believe he’ll kill off “anyone” anymore. I kinda see what you’re saying, but in addition to Ned, he HAS killed Robb, Tywin, and Catelyn (he did kill her. She’s not the same character that she was, and while I find it incredibly annoying when authors magically bring their characters back to life, he did kill her). But I don’t think he’s going to kill Jon, Arya, Sansa, Tyrion, Danerys… certainly not before, like, the last half of the last book. And really, even money says only one of those five dies, and their death will be a traditional, fantasy, heroic death. I guess in retrospect, when Martin killed Ned, he was really killing a somewhat minor character (although, to be fair, that’s sort of a tautology – he was a minor character because he was killed). My take, in summary, is that Martin’s a little more willing than most authors to off major players, but that doesn’t mean he’s going to summarily execute Jon, Arya, Sansa, Tyrion, and/or Danerys. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/1342 "2011-07-14T16:35:53Z")
:: Crosses fingers :: ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/1343 "2011-07-14T16:54:37Z")
And really, what happened to Cat is worse than killing. She has most definitely not been “brought back to life”, she is a barely functioning animated corpse with only revenge as a reason for existing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2011, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/1344 "2011-07-16T18:50:04Z")
I > [@](#): > > thought about making a separate thread for this, but since the discussion here seems to be dying down a bit, I guess it won’t derail anyone. > > Is GRRM just messing with us? > > I’ve listened to the commentary on Pan’s Labyrinth, and Del Toro makes the comment at the death where the man’s face gets graphically beaten in with a bottle that he did that so we’d take the rest of the movie seriously. No other death in that movie is half so graphic, but it still took me 3 or 4 watchings to figure that out, because after the shock of the bottle death I covered my eyes whenever it looked like someone else was about to get it. > > Did GRRM kill off Eddard Stark to shake us up the same way? > > One of the major things I was told about this series when I picked it up - and one of the things I pass on to new people picking it up - is that “anyone can die! Main characters, good guys, protagonists - this isn’t a typical fantasy book!” And of course, the death of Eddard Stark is one of the main reasons feel the need to qualify the books that way. > > But really… considering the world they live in, the actual deaths of POV/protagonist characters are pretty much as few and far between as most fantasy series. Lots of supporting characters die, but POV characters mostly get a “tease” death - he makes you THINK he’s killing the character at the end of a chapter, but that character’s only very injured/knocked out/kidnapped or whatnot when their next chapter rolls around. > > The Red Wedding chapters are a really good example: Apparently in quick succession, Robb, Catelyn and then Arya are all killed, Robb and Catelyn at the wedding itself, Arya when the Hound hits her in the back of the head with an axe. I was truly, honestly upset for their deaths the first time I read that - knowing that Eddard had died, ANYONE could die. > > But only Robb died. Catelyn was brought back to life by the red priest, and Arya was only knocked out with the flat of the axe. > > GRRM does this all the time - makes us THINK he’s killing a character for real, but then they turn up again later, in mortal peril of some sort, but alive. > > He killed Eddard just to make us THINK this was a book where “anyone can die” seriously, but once he’s convinced us, he doesn’t really need to do it again, does he? > > I find while I reading DWD that I’m taking any mortal peril a character is in with much less upset and much more of a grain of salt than I have in previous books. I guess the “lesson” of Eddard is starting to wear off. I don’t really believe he’ll kill off “anyone” anymore. Sorry to take so long to get back to you Feyrat, but I’ve on the road the past couple of days. I think you’re wrong for these reasons: 1.) Ned, Robb, and Caitlyn Stark and Tywin Lannister are not the only major characters to have died so far. Renly was not a POV character and didn’t appear in that many scenes, but two of his decisions – not to support Ned and to declare himself king – have been pivotal to the plot. He was clearly a major player in the War of the Five Kings. Lysa Tully and Joffrey Lannister were both murdered and I fail to see how they cannot be considered major characters. 2.) At the end of AFFC, Brienne, Cersei, Margaery, Loras, and Davos were in pretty hot water. I would say all five are major characters and it’s hard to see how things will resolve without at least one of them biting the bullet. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/1345 "2011-08-09T13:52:45Z")
(NB: I have not read the thread yet.) > [@quixotic78](#): > > My take, in summary, is that Martin’s a little more willing than most authors to off major players, but that doesn’t mean he’s going to summarily execute Jon, Arya, Sansa, Tyrion, and/or Danerys. It’s good to be willing to kill off major characters, but having just finished AFFC it feels like he’s being a little over-zealous. ‘Look at ME! I’‘ll kill ANYONE! Muwahahahahaha!’ The chapter with Brienne at the end of the book was illogical. Could be a mind game or a ‘test’, or it could just be madness. I’m waiting for _A Dance With Dragons_ to come out in paperback before I buy it. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/1346 "2011-08-09T16:49:52Z")
> [@quixotic78](#): > > But I don’t think he’s going to kill Jon, Arya, Sansa, Tyrion, Danerys… certainly not before, like, the last half of the last book. You really don’t want to be saying stuff like that in an open spoiler thread. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/1347 "2011-08-09T17:02:30Z")
Anyone else worried the show is going to completely get rid of Roose Bolton? They got rid of the second Stark army and without that there isn’t anything for him to do or any reason for him to be introduced. I guess the RW would be just as good with just Freys but the Roose Bolton stuff added a lot to the sense of foreboding surrounding the Stark side of the conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/1348 "2011-08-09T17:37:43Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Anyone else worried the show is going to completely get rid of Roose Bolton? They got rid of the second Stark army and without that there isn’t anything for him to do or any reason for him to be introduced. I guess the RW would be just as good with just Freys but the Roose Bolton stuff added a lot to the sense of foreboding surrounding the Stark side of the conflict. Well, that and a good chunk of what happens in the North after the Red Wedding is all very Bolton-centric. I’m trying to remember…I was reminded by someone above. What’s the deal with “Loras was in hot water”. He was allegedly seriously wounded. But weren’t all of those bits basically based on Cersei’s POV? And isn’t she an idiot that the Tyrells would happily lie to, to keep her from continually sending assassins after him? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/1349 "2011-08-09T18:48:19Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > I’m trying to remember…I was reminded by someone above. What’s the deal with “Loras was in hot water”. He was allegedly seriously wounded. But weren’t all of those bits basically based on Cersei’s POV? And isn’t she an idiot that the Tyrells would happily lie to, to keep her from continually sending assassins after him? > > -Joe The report of Ser Loras’s injuries in _A Feast for Crows_ was delivered by Aurane Waters, who I believe is Cersei’s man and apparently witnessed the event firsthand. He was the naval admiral or something. The story Cersei then relays to Margaery is pretty thorough, although we don’t know its accuracy. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/1350 "2011-08-09T18:55:37Z")
Can we not have any spoilers about _A Dance With Dragons_ in this thread, please? Or is this an open-spoiler thread for all the books in the series? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/1351 "2011-08-09T19:09:51Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Can we not have any spoilers about _A Dance With Dragons_ in this thread, please? Or is this an open-spoiler thread for all the books in the series? AFAIK it covers all the books. I avoided it during my read of DwD. So, it looks like I’m right and Cersei is very likely being played by the Tyrells. Good to know I catch at least some things. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/1352 "2011-08-09T19:41:51Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > “Loras was in hot water” Well, hot oil… ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/1353 "2011-08-09T20:15:23Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Can we not have any spoilers about _A Dance With Dragons_ in this thread, please? Or is this an open-spoiler thread for all the books in the series? This was initially meant to be the thread for people watching the TV series who had read the books published _to date_. There was a thread for _ADWD_ but it fell off the front page; therefore, those who’ve read the book can’t find it. So I’ll stay away until I’ve read the giant tome sitting sullenly on the shelf. I really _ought_ to start it, but it’s high summer in Houston that clump of dead trees seems as appetizing as a Thanksgiving Dinner with all the trimmings. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/1354 "2011-08-09T20:45:07Z")
First, I’m not quite done with ADWD, so I’m not discussing it here and have not ventured into that thread. Second, maybe I wasn’t clear, but the guy who told Cersei about Loras’s injuries was her own good buddy (I think). And he supposedly witnessed the whole thing. So I’m not sure we can conclude that the Tyrells are lying about Loras. Again, that’s from AFFC. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/1355 "2011-08-09T22:46:48Z")
Mod, I screwed up and posted in the wrong thread. Could you please move post #1346 to the [“Dance With Dragons”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=616260) thread? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/1356 "2011-08-09T23:01:53Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > First, I’m not quite done with ADWD, so I’m not discussing it here and have not ventured into that thread. > > Second, maybe I wasn’t clear, but the guy who told Cersei about Loras’s injuries was her own good buddy (I think). And he supposedly witnessed the whole thing. So I’m not sure we can conclude that the Tyrells are lying about Loras. Again, that’s from AFFC. As I mentioned/asked in the other thread… Assuming that the guy you’re referring to is Cersei’s admiral…isn’t that the guy who just stole her navy? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/1357 "2011-08-09T23:03:23Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Can we not have any spoilers about _A Dance With Dragons_ in this thread, please? Or is this an open-spoiler thread for all the books in the series? PLEASE no Dance with Dragons spoilers. I want to read about the series thus far and the TV show, but I don’t want to be spoiled on the new stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/1358 "2011-08-09T23:09:08Z")
> [@OpalCat](#): > > PLEASE no Dance with Dragons spoilers. I want to read about the series thus far and the TV show, but I don’t want to be spoiled on the new stuff. So…Dance with Dragons is not part of the series thus far? When will it become so? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/1359 "2011-08-09T23:15:44Z")
> [@OpalCat](#): > > PLEASE no Dance with Dragons spoilers. I want to read about the series thus far and the TV show, but I don’t want to be spoiled on the new stuff. The thread title is perfectly clear, this is not the thread you want to be in if you don’t want to be spoiled. I honestly am shocked it took this long to bring the spoiler complaints to the thread specifically opened so we didn’t have to deal with them. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377/1360 "2011-08-09T23:20:05Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > The thread title is perfectly clear, this is not the thread you want to be in if you don’t want to be spoiled. I honestly am shocked it took this long to bring the spoiler complaints to the thread specifically opened so we didn’t have to deal with them. She has a point. When this thread was opened, the only books published so far had been out at least five years. DwD is NEW…less than a month on the shelves. I’m more than willing to make allowances for that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377.md?page=67) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-omnibus-discussion-thread-based-on-knowledge-of-books-open-spoilers/579377.md?page=69)