# Game of Thrones, Post-Book 5 Speculation (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 16, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864 "2013-04-16T19:52:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/61 "2013-04-20T03:46:35Z")
> [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > The problem with that is that Jon looks a \*lot \*like Arya and Ned. That makes sense if he’s Ned’s bastard, or Lyanna’s, but not if he has no Stark blood at all. Like I said, it doesn’t fit as well as the couple most prominent theories. However, Martin has surprised people before and there has even been worry that he may change his mind on this topic if he is unhappy how easily people figured out what he had planned. ---
**Author:** ![midnight-dreary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@midnight-dreary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/midnight-dreary)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/62 "2013-04-20T09:28:36Z")
I’m a heretic. I don’t believe Jon is a targaryen. If he is, it’s a product of rape. I don’t believe he is azor ahai. People seem to forget what they are reading. This is not some wonderful story where lovely things like two people running away, in love, and having a baby. and when they die, someone steps in and cares for it. Magic is not going to save the day. (in fact, martin said that the gods/religion will have nothing to do with the end battle.) Most likely, we will never know jons parents. I believe that it’s not the real jon dying. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/63 "2013-04-20T12:10:38Z")
> [@midnight-dreary](#): > > I’m a heretic. I don’t believe Jon is a targaryen. If he is, it’s a product of rape. I thought that was a given. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/64 "2013-04-20T12:25:50Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I thought that was a given. I read all the books in a row, so they sort of blend together, but I believe that it was hinted that Lyanna wanted Rheagar and ran off with him so she wouldn’t have to marry Robert. Who, after all, was a douchebag frat boy. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/65 "2013-04-20T12:27:26Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I thought that was a given. Do we know for certain Lyanna Stark did not want to be with Rheagar? That’s the story King Robert and everyone else knows, but it might not be the whole truth. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/66 "2013-04-20T16:51:49Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > Do we know for certain Lyanna Stark did not want to be with Rheagar? That’s the story King Robert and everyone else knows, but it might not be the whole truth. No, we don’t know that for certain. The books did hint that she may have been willing. Lyanna was a realist about Robert, and knew that he’d never be faithful to her if she did end up as his wife; she alluded to a few interests of her own and the desire to live a meaningful life of her own too. \<\\> ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/67 "2013-04-20T16:56:23Z")
Ned Stark though Rhaegar was a great guy. No way was Lyanna raped. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/68 "2013-04-20T17:05:58Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Ned Stark though Rhaegar was a great guy. No way was Lyanna raped. Ned Stark thought Littlefinger was trustworthy too. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/69 "2013-04-20T17:47:51Z")
Ned Stark was not a warg (at least not that’s been revealed), yet two of his sons (assuming Jon is his) certainly are and Arya has tendencies, and since Jon doesn’t have Catelyn’s blood it has to be through the Stark line. Do you think it’s bloodline related or some kind of northern magic? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/70 "2013-04-20T17:52:27Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > I reason I throw in on the site that Aegon is real is because the vision Dany had about Rhaegar (most likely) looking down at Aegon and saying: > > “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” > > One of the few places the “song of ice and fire” is referenced in the books and as we know that’s what GRRM calls the series. It’d be weird if the ‘prince that was promised’ was killed early on. Rhaegar had been wrong before. He thought HE was the prince that was promised at first. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/71 "2013-04-20T17:53:41Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Ned Stark thought Littlefinger was trustworthy too. Everyone thought Rhaegar was a great guy, not just Ned. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/72 "2013-04-21T21:14:27Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Rhaegar had been wrong before. He thought HE was the prince that was promised at first. But Rhaegar claiming he was the prince who was promised was not shown in the prophecies in the House of the Undying, which I’d give more weight. Why should that be part of the prophecies Dany is shown if it means nothing? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/73 "2013-04-21T22:52:20Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > But Rhaegar claiming he was the prince who was promised was not shown in the prophecies in the House of the Undying, which I’d give more weight. Why should that be part of the prophecies Dany is shown if it means nothing? Because immediately afterwards Rhaegar talks about how he needs one more child (Jon) because the dragon needs three heads. Also, it can be to introduce Dany to that prophecy, even if the person introducing it is mistaken about the specifics. She sees Robb dead too, but that means nothing to her and likely never will. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/74 "2013-04-21T22:53:50Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > But Rhaegar claiming he was the prince who was promised was not shown in the prophecies in the House of the Undying, which I’d give more weight. Why should that be part of the prophecies Dany is shown if it means nothing? Not everything Dany sees in the HOTU is a prophecy. Most of what she saw is what happened in the past. You can see the list from [A Wiki of Ice and Fire](http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_of_the_Undying). However, she does hear some things that have so far been somewhat prophetic. > [@](#): > > Upon reaching the chamber of the Undying, Daenerys is spoken to in a barely perceptible whisper. The Undying call her “mother of dragons” and “child of three” and tell her some prophesies, saying “three fires must you light… one for life and one for death and one to love… three mounts must you ride… one to bed and one to dread and one to love… three treasons will you know… once for blood and once for gold and once for love…” Since it’s fun to speculate: Three fires: One for life - When the Dragons were born. One for death - When she burned Drogo and killed Mirri Maz Duur? One for love - I don’t remember her setting any other fire. Unless you count Drogo’s fire as the one for love. In that case one fire satisfies all three prophecies. Three mounts: One to bed - Daario One to dread - Drogon (her dragon) One to love - Drogo Three treasons: Once for blood - Mirri Maz Duur Once for gold - I don’t remember this one. Once for love - Jorah? But he betrayed her for a pardon before he knew her. So this one is up in the air. ---
**Author:** ![adhemar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@adhemar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhemar)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/75 "2013-04-22T03:07:11Z")
In Dance with Dragons, Arya kills some guy by giving someone a coin that is the given to the man and he then dies. Is the coin so well known that the knowledge that the man was given one so powerful that it gave him a heart attack or is there something I am missing? I am about a hundred pages form the end so there might be more discussion in the book I either missed or is still to come ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/76 "2013-04-22T03:08:57Z")
> [@adhemar](#): > > In Dance with Dragons, Arya kills some guy by giving someone a coin that is the given to the man and he then dies. Is the coin so well known that the knowledge that the man was given one so powerful that it gave him a heart attack or is there something I am missing? I am about a hundred pages form the end so there might be more discussion in the book I either missed or is still to come He bites the coins to check if they’re genuine. She poisoned the coin. ---
**Author:** ![Fair\_Rarity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fair_rarity/32/153_2.png) [@Fair\_Rarity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fair_Rarity)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/77 "2013-04-23T02:09:28Z")
Something bugging me all day. If Edmure doesn’t have an heir (his wife was still pregnant when we saw her last, iirc, and childbirth can be dangerous…as is Westeros) and the Freys off him too, who inherits Riverrun? Lady Stoneheart? Bran/Sansa/Rickon? Blackfish? I wonder if Sansa and Rickon will get Riverrun and Winterfell, one each. Bran’s stuck in the tree, Arya couldn’t handle it and is the youngest girl. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/78 "2013-04-23T03:03:48Z")
Robert Arryn would have as much claim to Riverrun as the Stark kids. I would imagine Blackfish would be first in line, since traditionally male heirs get priority. I would imagine the following order: Edmure Edmure’s son (if he has one) Blackfish Catelyn (if she could be considered alive at this point) Bran Rickon Robert (I would imagine as a male he would be in front of Sans and Arya) Sansa Arya ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/79 "2013-04-23T03:21:27Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > Robert Arryn would have as much claim to Riverrun as the Stark kids. I would imagine Blackfish would be first in line, since traditionally male heirs get priority. I would imagine the following order: > > Edmure > Edmure’s son (if he has one) > Blackfish > Catelyn (if she could be considered alive at this point) > Bran > Rickon > Robert (I would imagine as a male he would be in front of Sans and Arya) > Sansa > Arya If it works the way British male primogeniture works then it would be: Edmure Tully (Edmure’s son) (Edmure’s daughter) (Catelyn Tully Stark) (Robb Stark) Brandon “Bran” Stark Rickon Stark Sansa Stark Lannister Arya Stark Lysa Tully Arryn Robert “Robin” Arryn Brynden “Blackfish” Tully Children inherit before siblings and brothers inherit before sisters. You follow each branch to its end before you move to the next junior branch. Thus, all of Hoster Tully’s direct descendants are ahead of his brother. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/80 "2013-04-23T03:28:58Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Children inherit before siblings and brothers inherit before sisters. Ah, interesting. That puts Blackfish at the bottom of the list. He probably wouldn’t touch Riverrun with a ten foot pole anyway. I didn’t include any dead people on my list, which was why Lysa was absent. If Sansa married Robert I suppose that would strengthen their claim to Riverrun, especially since everyone thinks Bran, Rickon, and Arya are dead. (Assuming something happened to Edmure and he left no heirs.) Too bad Robert is such a sniveling little brat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864.md?page=5)