# Game of Thrones, Post-Book 5 Speculation (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 16, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864 "2013-04-16T19:52:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/81 "2013-04-23T03:43:16Z")
This means that as of now, Sansa would ordinarily stand to inherit both Riverrun and Winterfell if Bran and Rickon are assumed dead and nothing else changes. Since she has married into the royal family, however, she would be likely to be persuaded to renounce her claims in favor of the Crown so that they could he used as gifts to reward allies. In this vein, the Crown has seized Riverrun and handed over title to Emmon Frey and has seized Winterfell and handed over title to Ramsey Snow/Bolton. Ramsey’s marriage to the fake Arya (Jeyne Poole) is simply to give some semblance of Stark continuity. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/82 "2013-04-23T03:46:46Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > Ah, interesting. That puts Blackfish at the bottom of the list. He probably wouldn’t touch Riverrun with a ten foot pole anyway. I didn’t include any dead people on my list, which was why Lysa was absent. > > If Sansa married Robert I suppose that would strengthen their claim to Riverrun, especially since everyone thinks Bran, Rickon, and Arya are dead. (Assuming something happened to Edmure and he left no heirs.) Too bad Robert is such a sniveling little brat. Yes, I meant to put Lysa in parentheses. But remember that so far as the world is concerned, Arya is alive and married to Ramsay. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/83 "2013-04-23T03:58:36Z")
Oh yeah, I forgot about the fake Arya. I need to re-read the more recent books. So the claim to Riverrun is moot anyway since it’s been given to a Frey by the crown? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/84 "2013-04-23T03:58:55Z")
I’m 90% sure that all male claimants have to be extinguished before any female claimants (except in Dorne). The Targaryens once had a civil war over a daughter inheriting so they did away with that custom. In that case it would be Edmure, potential son of Edmure, the Blackfish? That also might be a Targaryen only rule, but since it’s been a 300 year dynasty we don’t have any recent examples to shed light on the situation. Although I guess if Tommen died then that would make Stannis king? ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/85 "2013-04-23T05:33:58Z")
I can’t think of any clear examples of the rules of inheritance in Westeros. The GoT wiki says that it’s children first, boys before girls, in which case **Ascenray** ’s order is correct. ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/86 "2013-04-23T11:38:08Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Since she has married into the royal family Except, she hasn’t. She’s married into the Lannister family, but officially the royal family is Baratheon. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/87 "2013-04-23T12:06:14Z")
The point is that she’s in a position that the crown can persuade her that she doesn’t need the titles and estates that she would otherwise inherit. True merger with the crown of a title happens only when the sitting monarch himself inherits it. (Like how the real Prince of Wales will become Duke of Edinburgh when his father dies and the king when his mother dies.) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/88 "2013-04-23T12:12:07Z")
What about the question of who killed Little Walder? The Freys suspect the Manderleys. Theon suspected Mance Rayder and the spearwives. Big Walder suggests it was fallout over a dispute over a debt. I myself suspect Big Walder himself. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/89 "2013-04-23T14:20:58Z")
I suppose the crown persuading Sansa to do anything is a moot point, since her husband is across the sea and she herself is hiding in the Eyrie or wherever they are now, I can’t remember anymore. I had completely forgotten Little Walder was dead. I’ll definitely be re-reading the last book soon. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/90 "2013-04-23T15:05:26Z")
Yes, Sansa is in the Eyrie, as Alayna Stone (IIRC). Of course, even though her husband is in Essos, since they never consummated the marriage, it can be easily annulled - or at least Littlefinger would argue such. I don’t really think the Crown will mind all too much, considering Tyrion’s killing of The Hand. Of course they may object to who Sansa is supposed to be marrying (Harrold Hardyng), if they know why Littlefinger picked that match. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Not\_Appearing\_In\_This\_Film](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a8b319/32.png) [@Sir\_Not\_Appearing\_In\_This\_Film](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Not_Appearing_In_This_Film)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/91 "2013-04-23T15:10:10Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > 1. The Wall is going to come down. We’ve been told so many times how important it is for the realm of men, that it just has to come down at the climax of the story, or at least be breached by the White Walkers. > > 2. When that happens, Bran will be the only one in a position to help save the Seven Kingdoms from the invasion. Possibly, he’ll be aided by Sam Tarly. I agree with the Wall coming down, particularly since the original was put in place by Bran the Builder, and now we’ve got another Bran in position to create a new barrier between the Seven Kingdoms and the White Walkers. With the Wall and it’s magical energies gone, will the seasonal balance be restored, giving the whatever Stark ends up ruling Winterfell the chance to throw out the family words every year? ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/92 "2013-04-23T15:24:04Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > Not everything Dany sees in the HOTU is a prophecy. Most of what she saw is what happened in the past. You can see the list from [A Wiki of Ice and Fire](http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_of_the_Undying). > > However, she does hear some things that have so far been somewhat prophetic. > > Since it’s fun to speculate: > > Three fires: > > One for life - When the Dragons were born. > One for death - When she burned Drogo and killed Mirri Maz Duur? > One for love - I don’t remember her setting any other fire. Unless you count Drogo’s fire as the one for love. In that case one fire satisfies all three prophecies. > > Three mounts: > > One to bed - Daario > One to dread - Drogon (her dragon) > One to love - Drogo > > Three treasons: > > Once for blood - Mirri Maz Duur > Once for gold - I don’t remember this one. > Once for love - Jorah? But he betrayed her for a pardon before he knew her. So this one is up in the air. Speculation is fun! As to the three treasons, I agree on Mirri Maz Duur as the betrayer for blood, but I thought that Jorah was the betrayer for gold. He betrayed her not for revenge or love but for a royal pardon that would allow him to assume his previous position in his homeland. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/93 "2013-04-24T01:09:27Z")
I agree that Jorah is the betrayer for gold. I don’t think the third treason has happened yet. Although I remember being curious about Brown Ben and his apparent betrayal. It seemed really out of character for him and I was hoping for some clarification at some point. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/94 "2013-04-24T01:25:22Z")
Missed the edit - never mind, I forget it had been explained already. Duh. ---
**Author:** ![Fair\_Rarity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fair_rarity/32/153_2.png) [@Fair\_Rarity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fair_Rarity)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/95 "2013-04-24T01:51:35Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > Oh yeah, I forgot about the fake Arya. > > I need to re-read the more recent books. So the claim to Riverrun is moot anyway since it’s been given to a Frey by the crown? It’s been “given” by the crown, but does it count when half the lands don’t support the crown? 😛 Isn’t Jaime the warden of the east? Don’t think Lysa listened to him before she flew. The succession of all the houses is going to be a huge problem for whoever wins the game of thrones. Edmure or his child/ren or Hoster’s other grandkids will claim Riverrun, the Freys will say “hold up, it’s ours now.” Even when fake!Arya is revealed as a fake (my guess that’s going to Ros in tv-land?), the Boltons conquered Winterfell. Can Dany (assuming she wins) say with a straight face “Sorry, Roose, but the Starks are the true heirs of Winterfell. Conquest doesn’t count… Who? Me? I didn’t conquer Westeros. I RECLAIMED. It’s a subtle difference. Ask a maester to explain it to you”? ---
**Author:** ![Uther\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Uther\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uther_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/96 "2013-04-24T01:54:17Z")
[_Sings:_] Jon Snow’s body lies a-mouldering in the grave, (3x) but his soul is warging on! _Chorus_: Valar, va-la-har morghulis, (3x) his soul keeps warging on. [_Fades_] ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/97 "2013-04-24T02:13:26Z")
> [@Fair\_Rarity](#): > > Even when fake!Arya is revealed as a fake (my guess that’s going to Ros in tv-land?) Ros is far too old. ---
**Author:** ![Fair\_Rarity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fair_rarity/32/153_2.png) [@Fair\_Rarity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fair_Rarity)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/98 "2013-04-25T01:44:09Z")
Ros is too old, but the Bolton’s kind of smarts don’t run that way. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/99 "2013-04-25T02:27:37Z")
Roose’s sure do. In case case it’s not the boltons that need convincing. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864/100 "2013-04-25T02:47:38Z")
Yeah, Roose Bolton isn’t that stupid. And while Ramsay is crazy, he’s not a complete idiot. Besides, Littlefinger and the Lannisters were in on it too and so too probably the Freys and the Manderleys. And the people who need to be fooled, the ordinary people of the North, are likely roughly aware that Arya is younger than Robb and Sansa and that Ros is practically the same age as Ned and Catelyn. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-post-book-5-speculation-open-spoilers/655864.md?page=6)