# Game of Thrones' Producers' next move: Confederacy. Sigh **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 20, 2017, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-producers-next-move-confederacy-sigh/791720 "2017-07-20T14:47:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-producers-next-move-confederacy-sigh/791720/121 "2017-07-28T03:38:08Z")
One perspective: [Why HBO’s “Confederate” Is Completely Unnecessary | Teen Vogue](http://www.teenvogue.com/story/hbos-confederate-is-completely-unnecessary) ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-producers-next-move-confederacy-sigh/791720/122 "2017-07-28T08:04:24Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > Can’t wait for somebody to announce a new TV show about the Draka, who in their S. M Sterling book series were basically what would happen if you combined the Nazis and the Confederacy but somehow made them 10x worse. I was going to say that Stirling’s _Under The Yoke_ was fairly well detailed in how 18th & 19th century slavery evolved in the 20th. It ain’t pretty. Kind of scary, actually. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-producers-next-move-confederacy-sigh/791720/123 "2017-08-01T19:20:04Z")
Can’t link to it at the moment but Amazon announced they have their own Civil War Alternate history series coming that they have been working on a year now. In this case the states of Louisiana and two others (forget which states) are given to freed slaves who form their own nation in North America separate from the USA. Sounds interesting in its own right. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-producers-next-move-confederacy-sigh/791720/124 "2017-08-01T20:17:11Z")
I’m not buying this idea that an alternate-history show where the Confederacy won the war, and slavery survives into the 21st century, is glorifying the Confederacy or will be seen as such by the pro-Confederate apologists. In my experience, the pro-Confederate crowd _always_ claims that The War Had Nothing To Do With Slavery! (Or that at the very most, slavery was just a minor issue, but certainly not the primary Southern Cause, which was States’ Rights, or some vaguely-defined clash of “agrarian” vs. industrial ideals, or even “Southern Christianity vs. Northern Secular Humanism”.) Secondly, the pro-Confederates also always claim that gosh, slavery was on its way out, and if it hadn’t been for that nasty War of Northern Aggression, the Southerners would have freed the slaves real soon, and there wouldn’t be any of these awful racial problems, either. In a fine bit of cognitive dissonance, the pro-Confederates–having maintained that The War Had Nothing To Do With Slavery, and that _of course_ the South would have freed their slaves if those “outside agitators” hadn’t come in and messed everything up–also do tend to downplay how bad slavery was (and those wicked Yankee factories were Just As Bad, what with the “wage slaves” and all). Still, this isn’t 1860: I think you’ll struggle to find many pro-Confederates who talk about how great it would be if slavery had never been abolished, or who won’t be insulted by the equation “The C.S.A. wins = Slavery forever!” An alternate history in which the Confederacy won, and _therefore slavery continues to exist into the 21st century_ is actually pointing out to the Confederate apologists that their Lost Cause was slavery and white supremacy; not some [revisionist bullshit](http://www.metrolyrics.com/if-the-south-woulda-won-lyrics-hank-williams-jr.html) about “Southern pride” featuring Elvis; smilin’ faces; decent Southern folks drinkin’ moonshine, drivin’ [del]American-made[/del] Southern-made cars, and listening to good old country music; and some “tough on crime” posturing. An alternate history in which the Confederacy wins, and as a result millions of people are kept enslaved–and no doubt shown being graphically abused in good HBO fashion–will be seen as wicked anti-Southern liberal propaganda by the Confederate-Flag-waving crowd, not as some “Yee-haw! That’s the way it _should_ be!” validation. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-producers-next-move-confederacy-sigh/791720/125 "2017-08-01T20:21:26Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > An alternate history in which the Confederacy wins, and as a result millions of people are kept enslaved–and no doubt shown being graphically abused in good HBO fashion–will be seen as wicked anti-Southern liberal propaganda by the Confederate-Flag-waving crowd, not as some “Yee-haw! That’s the way it _should_ be!” validation. I dunno–I’m just about as uncomfortable making a prediction in this direction as I am making one in the opposite direction. I really think we lack enough information to judge how the show will be interpreted. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-producers-next-move-confederacy-sigh/791720/126 "2017-08-01T21:27:26Z")
It doesn’t matter to me if slavery apologists see it as glorifying slavery. If there is a slave owner that is sympathetic, or a cool villain that people like, then that will be glorifying slavery. It’s not about the racists, it’s about perpetuating that same myth we are currently in the midst of trying to eradicate. Is there possibly a way to show the Confederacy on the screen and completely vilify it? Maybe. I can’t think of it, but maybe. But I doubt the Game of Thrones people can pull it off. their clam to fame is making intriguing villains that people even sometimes root for. So many despicable people, and yet people still watch. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-producers-next-move-confederacy-sigh/791720/127 "2017-08-01T22:29:49Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It doesn’t matter to me if slavery apologists see it as glorifying slavery. If there is a slave owner that is sympathetic, or a cool villain that people like, then that will be glorifying slavery. It’s not about the racists, it’s about perpetuating that same myth we are currently in the midst of trying to eradicate. > > Is there possibly a way to show the Confederacy on the screen and completely vilify it? Maybe. I can’t think of it, but maybe. But I doubt the Game of Thrones people can pull it off. their clam to fame is making intriguing villains that people even sometimes root for. So many despicable people, and yet people still watch. You haven’t seen _The Man In The High Castle_, have you? One of the main characters is a Nazi turncoat (was American, now one of the highest Nazis in the country) and there are certainly moments where the audience will find themselves siding with him. The show definitely isn’t about glorifying Nazism, either. Again: No-one has satisfactorily explained why TMITHC or The Handmaid’s Tale are A-OK but a show in which the CSA didn’t lose the Civil War is different and therefore not OK. ---
**Author:** ![divemaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/divemaster/32/78_2.png) [@divemaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/divemaster)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-producers-next-move-confederacy-sigh/791720/128 "2017-08-02T19:44:42Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It doesn’t matter to me if slavery apologists see it as glorifying slavery. If there is a slave owner that is sympathetic, or a cool villain that people like, then that will be glorifying slavery. What’s wrong with having a slave-owner who is sympathetic? Or a cool villain that people like? Overall bad characters can have good qualities, and overall good characters can have bad qualities. It’s these nuances that make fiction entertaining. I found myself rooting for Walter White (just a gut reaction due to great writing–he was not a “rootable” person) at the same time I was disgusted by some of his actions. Every episode of **Breaking Bad** I had to acknowledge this dichotomy. Else, it’s just comic-book stereotypes (Superman vs. Dr. Sadistic!), or the white hats ride in and clean up the town of the Snidely Whiplashes. ---
**Author:** ![Arcite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/67e7ee/32.png) [@Arcite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arcite)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-producers-next-move-confederacy-sigh/791720/129 "2017-08-02T20:11:53Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > You haven’t seen _The Man In The High Castle_, have you? One of the main characters is a Nazi turncoat (was American, now one of the highest Nazis in the country) and there are certainly moments where the audience will find themselves siding with him. The show definitely isn’t about glorifying Nazism, either. > > Again: No-one has satisfactorily explained why TMITHC or The Handmaid’s Tale are A-OK but a show in which the CSA didn’t lose the Civil War is different and therefore not OK. [Leaper’s post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20375515&postcount=121) a few posts up has a link to an article by a black SJW blacksplaining that the reason _The Man in the High Castle_ is OK but _Confederate_ is not is that Germany has repented of Nazism but America has never repented of slavery. I don’t buy that, but I guess some people do. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-producers-next-move-confederacy-sigh/791720/130 "2017-08-02T20:48:28Z")
> [@divemaster](#): > > What’s wrong with having a slave-owner who is sympathetic? Or a cool villain that people like? Overall bad characters can have good qualities, and overall good characters can have bad qualities. It’s these nuances that make fiction entertaining. I found myself rooting for Walter White (just a gut reaction due to great writing–he was not a “rootable” person) at the same time I was disgusted by some of his actions. > Every episode of **Breaking Bad** I had to acknowledge this dichotomy. > > Else, it’s just comic-book stereotypes (Superman vs. Dr. Sadistic!), or the white hats ride in and clean up the town of the Snidely Whiplashes. I’ve allays believed the Kinsey Scale applied to all aspects of the human psyche. There is rarely a such thing as someone who is 100% asshole. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-producers-next-move-confederacy-sigh/791720/131 "2017-08-02T22:12:05Z")
[John C. Reilly] Well, I don’t know that I believe _anyone_ is 100% a dick. [/John C. Reilly] ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-producers-next-move-confederacy-sigh/791720/132 "2017-08-02T22:26:15Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > Can’t link to it at the moment but Amazon announced they have their own Civil War Alternate history series coming that they have been working on a year now. In this case the states of Louisiana and two others (forget which states) are given to freed slaves who form their own nation in North America separate from the USA. Sounds interesting in its own right. [Black America](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/01/arts/television/amazon-black-america-confederate.html) The premise is that freed slaves (or their descendants- not sure when the break in the timeline occurs) are given Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama as a black homeland in reparation for slavery. Another “hmmm, this could be fireworks or a towering inferno, we’ll see” basis. This one’s on Amazon. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-producers-next-move-confederacy-sigh/791720/133 "2017-08-03T13:04:19Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > One perspective: [Why HBO’s “Confederate” Is Completely Unnecessary | Teen Vogue](http://www.teenvogue.com/story/hbos-confederate-is-completely-unnecessary) Since literally any entertainment project can be criticized for not being about the most important topic possible, and everyone’s definition of what should be most important is different, the basic premise of the article is simply vacuous. Since any entertainment product is ‘unnecessary’, arguing that someone is racist (by implication) for making the unnecessary product they want instead of the one you want isn’t remotely close to valid. > [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > The point was that he said “we’re both history nerds. I remember reading a history of the Civil War, I think it might have been the Shelby Foote one.” The article I read pointed out how could you forget if you had read a 3000 page book on the Civil War? Either he hasn’t read it and just dropped Foote’s name so it sounds more like he knows what he’s talking about, or he’s read some other Civil War books, but doesn’t remember the author names, but does remember Foote as someone associated with the Civil War. I’ve read lots of history books over time, but any that I’ve read more than five years ago I probably will get mixed up with other ones. If you read a decent amount, it’s easy to forget any particular book, especially when you’re trying to recall the name of it on the fly in an interview. The idea that people must always remember every author and book that they’ve read through the course of their lives well enough to bring it up off-the-cuff in an interview is pretty outlandish and doesn’t match my experience at all. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-producers-next-move-confederacy-sigh/791720/134 "2017-08-05T04:40:42Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > One perspective: [Why HBO’s “Confederate” Is Completely Unnecessary | Teen Vogue](http://www.teenvogue.com/story/hbos-confederate-is-completely-unnecessary) Teen Vogues article about [anal sex for teens](http://www.teenvogue.com/story/anal-sex-what-you-need-to-know) and [White people making gifs with blacks in it is racist.](http://www.teenvogue.com/story/digital-blackface-reaction-gifs/amp) Not a fan of Teen Vogue ---
**Author:** ![araminty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5e925/32.png) [@araminty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/araminty)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-producers-next-move-confederacy-sigh/791720/135 "2017-08-05T05:18:52Z")
Great [article](https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/08/no-confederate/535512/?utm_source=atltw) by Ta-Nahesi Coates about this show. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-producers-next-move-confederacy-sigh/791720/136 "2017-08-05T07:00:41Z")
Here’s a crazy idea if the show offends you so much: don’t watch it. (Seriously, why do people find this such a hard concept?) Of course, nobody has actually seen said show yet, but already they know that slavery is going to be white-washed and the CSA glorified. > [@Quimby](#): > > And beyond all that there is slavery right now in the world we live in. In America even. It didn’t end in 1865. The preemptive outrage about this is ridiculous. Really? :dubious: And _Teen Vogue_ isn’t even fit for toilet paper most of the time. It’s almost as bad as _Cosmo_. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-producers-next-move-confederacy-sigh/791720/137 "2017-08-05T11:12:21Z")
> [@araminty](#): > > Great [article](https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/08/no-confederate/535512/?utm_source=atltw) by Ta-Nahesi Coates about this show. Thanks for sharing that. No ambiguity on his position. His contrasts with Man in the High Castle/Nazi alt-history is interesting. Nazism had a clear end; the Civil War had a soft end, and much Conderate leadership was back in power within 20 years. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-producers-next-move-confederacy-sigh/791720/138 "2017-08-05T11:51:52Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Here’s a crazy idea if the show offends you so much: don’t watch it. (Seriously, why do people find this such a hard concept?) It is interesting–I remember a time when it was the conservatives who were pearl-clutchers who felt the fundamental _need_ to shut down anything that they don’t personally want to see or hear and the liberals who were supporting freedom of expression. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-producers-next-move-confederacy-sigh/791720/139 "2017-08-05T14:25:05Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Really? :dubious: Yes. It’s mostly immigrants who are the victims in the US but can be anyone. A hair salon near me got busted for using slaves to braid hair a few years ago. Sex slavery is also pervasive in the US and world. Here is [more](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_slavery). ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-producers-next-move-confederacy-sigh/791720/140 "2017-08-22T11:06:45Z")
A bump - article discussing how successful show creators often take risks on their next shows because they can: [http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/21/entertainment/game-of-thrones-confederate-link/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/21/entertainment/game-of-thrones-confederate-link/index.html) Cites shows like Steve Bochco’s Cop Rock and David Milch’s John from Cincinnati. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-producers-next-move-confederacy-sigh/791720.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-producers-next-move-confederacy-sigh/791720.md?page=8)