# Game of Thrones Question (spoilers within) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 18, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-question-spoilers-within/713013 "2015-02-18T16:16:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-question-spoilers-within/713013/21 "2015-02-18T23:14:29Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > I think that the fact that Jaime took a rest on the Iron Throne after slaying the King, while he waited to see who would come to claim it, also factored into Ned Stark’s feelings. It was one thing to break his solemn oath and kill the king he was supposed to be protecting, but to add insult to injury by seating himself on the throne, to which he had absolutely no claim, was disrespectful to the entire Realm…and that was something up with which Eddard Stark could not put. Good point, I forgot about him sitting on the throne, it was presumptuous. I guess would have thought better of Jaime if he killed the king and then went to the wall. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-question-spoilers-within/713013/22 "2015-03-04T21:28:38Z")
I’ve finally finished all 40 episodes and now have some more questions: 1. Littlefinger was pulling the strings from the beginning and is responsible for the chain of events of the main storyline (and providing new chain links when any part of his plan fell apart) . He needed Lysa Arryn to poison her husband to get the process started. He presumably initiated an affair with Lysa for the purpose of having an escape route to Vale. He gave her a vial of liquid to kill Jon, which she seems to acknowledge in Season 4, and then blame the Lannisters. However, back in Season 1, she had apparently fled the capital back to Vale to get away from the Lannisters. Why? She knew they had nothing to do with the killing. And when Catelyn approached Vale with Tyrion, she seemed to be legitimately concerned about having a Lannister there at all. Was she just acting? 2. How did Littlefinger manage to get “assigned” to Vale by Joffrey? Wasn’t that a bit coincidential? And when he fled with Sansa, he must have known that there was a good chance that he would be a suspect in her disappearance. I guess he was certain that the assassination of Joffrey would be successful and/or that word of Sansa in Vale would never reach King’s Landing. But that would be a stretch since nothing seemed to ever be a secret. Varys had spies everywhere. 3. Who ruled Vale while Jon and Lysa were in King’s Landing all those years? Apparently she had not been back there since Jon became Hand. I’m rewatching the series so will more questions as well. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-question-spoilers-within/713013/23 "2015-03-04T22:19:35Z")
IIRC, Lysa hated the Lannisters because Jon wanted to sent young Robert (Robin in the books) to be a ward at Casterly Rock (like Ned was a ward at the Vale), because he realized his son needed some learning and toughening up and needed to get away from his mother who was babying him. ---
**Author:** ![Telperion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telperion/32/509_2.png) [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-question-spoilers-within/713013/24 "2015-03-04T22:45:40Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > 1. How did Littlefinger manage to get “assigned” to Vale by Joffrey? Wasn’t that a bit coincidential? Not that coincidental I would think, since house Baelish is from the Vale. > [@](#): > > 1. Who ruled Vale while Jon and Lysa were in King’s Landing all those years? Apparently she had not been back there since Jon became Hand. [Nestor Royce](http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Nestor_Royce), apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-question-spoilers-within/713013/25 "2015-03-04T23:02:23Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > IIRC, Lysa hated the Lannisters because Jon wanted to sent young Robert (Robin in the books) to be a ward at Casterly Rock (like Ned was a ward at the Vale), because he realized his son needed some learning and toughening up and needed to get away from his mother who was babying him. Also, it’s not quite clear when Lysa went completely insane, but I think it’s safe to say it was some time before she killed Jon Arryn (else she wouldn’t have poisoned him in the first place), but I have no trouble believing that Littlefinger first convinced her to poison her husband, then convinced her that it was really the Lannisters’ fault all along ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-question-spoilers-within/713013/26 "2015-03-10T20:28:28Z")
The show began with a Night’s Watchman north of the wall finding a ritualistic murder scene, which included someone with a doll’s face at the site. The site is quickly cleaned up before he returns with his fellow Watchmen. But then a white walker kills his 2 partners and he flees. I don’t think this scenario was ever explained, was it? Also, the Starks find their baby direwolves with their slain mother and acknowledge that they aren’t found south of the wall. Is is ever explained on how they made it south of the wall? I assume wildlings going over the wall wouldn’t be able to bring a direwolf with them. Also, presumably none of the Starks would have ever encountered them before. Yet, they grab the pups and walk away with them? Not necessarily good parenting. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-question-spoilers-within/713013/27 "2015-03-10T20:49:16Z")
Both the opening scene and the presence of direwolves south of The Wall are indicative of the fact that Winter is Coming…and bringing with it any number of things that had been reduced to ‘legend’ status over the years (White Walkers, direwolves, etc.) The direwolf is the symbol of House Stark. They initially found 5 pups, one for each of the 5 Stark children…then a sixth, separated from the rest of the litter, for the bastard son. The symbolism is so ‘in your face’ that they couldn’t help but take them home. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-question-spoilers-within/713013/28 "2015-03-10T21:55:59Z")
To anyone who didn’t know what the Mad King had planned, it looked as if Jamie Lannister just betrayed and killed his liege when it looked like his side was losing. There’s no perfect analogy, but SUPPOSE Allied troops were massed outside Hitler’s bunker. Suddenly, one of Hitler’s bodyguards runs out yelling “The war is over- I killed der Fuhrer!” NOBODY would be sorry for Hitler. NOBODY would mind seeing him dead. But the soldiers wouldn’t see the bodyguard as a hero. They’d see him as a cowardly, duplicitous scumbag who killed his master in hopes of ingratiating himself with the Allies and saving his own skin. And they’d be furious that THEY didn’t get to give Hitler what THEY thought he had coming. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-question-spoilers-within/713013/29 "2015-03-10T22:23:36Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > Both the opening scene and the presence of direwolves south of The Wall are indicative of the fact that Winter is Coming…and bringing with it any number of things that had been reduced to ‘legend’ status over the years (White Walkers, direwolves, etc.) > > The direwolf is the symbol of House Stark. They initially found 5 pups, one for each of the 5 Stark children…then a sixth, separated from the rest of the litter, for the bastard son. The symbolism is so ‘in your face’ that they couldn’t help but take them home. Also, he dire wolf is impaled on a piece of stag horn, stag being the symbol of House Baratheon. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-question-spoilers-within/713013/30 "2015-03-10T22:36:11Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > To anyone who didn’t know what the Mad King had planned, it looked as if Jamie Lannister just betrayed and killed his liege when it looked like his side was losing. > > There’s no perfect analogy, but SUPPOSE Allied troops were massed outside Hitler’s bunker. Suddenly, one of Hitler’s bodyguards runs out yelling “The war is over- I killed der Fuhrer!” > > NOBODY would be sorry for Hitler. NOBODY would mind seeing him dead. But the soldiers wouldn’t see the bodyguard as a hero. They’d see him as a cowardly, duplicitous scumbag who killed his master in hopes of ingratiating himself with the Allies and saving his own skin. > > And they’d be furious that THEY didn’t get to give Hitler what THEY thought he had coming. Worse, what if you stormed the bunker and found that bodyguard sitting proudly in Hitler’s seat, grinning like he was the next Fuhrer? ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-question-spoilers-within/713013/31 "2015-03-10T23:44:21Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > The show began with a Night’s Watchman north of the wall finding a ritualistic murder scene, which included someone with a doll’s face at the site. The site is quickly cleaned up before he returns with his fellow Watchmen. But then a white walker kills his 2 partners and he flees. I don’t think this scenario was ever explained, was it? A child, somewhat ambiguous gender, wasn’t it? Do we even directly see the WW that early? The child comes back (“cleaning up” the bodies), with blue eyes, and the wights kill 2/3 Rangers. > [@astorian](#): > > There’s no perfect analogy, but SUPPOSE Allied troops were massed outside Hitler’s bunker. Suddenly, one of Hitler’s bodyguards runs out yelling “The war is over- I killed der Fuhrer!” Well the Allies had no want or responsibility to preserve the Reich, while Robert was fighting for the throne and the kingdom, but wanted to preserve the kingdom. He needed the legitimacy as the rightful ruler, and IIRC part of his claim was that he had Targaryen blood. It’s like if a July 20-type revolution went off with a hitch (Hitler still alive), and then some Hitler toadie saw the way the wind was blowing and announced that we was with them the whole time. The Allies might’ve been grateful to the successor for making things easy, but weren’t really obligated to make the transition smooth and allow the other Nazis to retain power. Dönitz was Hitler’s named successor, and according to many got the short end of the stick at Nuremberg, although acquitted of the worst accusations. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-question-spoilers-within/713013/32 "2015-03-11T18:45:13Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > Worse, what if you stormed the bunker and found that bodyguard sitting proudly in Hitler’s seat, grinning like he was the next Fuhrer? True. What was the reason that Jaime didn’t reveal that the Mad King planned on torching the entire city with wildfire, which was hidden in various parts of the city? He claimed that Ned would have not have believed him. But couldn’t he have simply shown them where it was hidden as proof? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-question-spoilers-within/713013/33 "2015-03-11T18:53:35Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > But couldn’t he have simply shown them where it was hidden as proof? I don’t think Jaime really knew exactly where the wildfire was; the alchemists kept all that pretty close to their chests. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-question-spoilers-within/713013/34 "2015-03-11T19:15:50Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > He claimed that Ned would have not have believed him. But couldn’t he have simply shown them where it was hidden as proof? > [@bump](#): > > I don’t think Jaime really knew exactly where the wildfire was; the alchemists kept all that pretty close to their chests. In addition Jaime was and is essentially fatalistic. Having forsworn his oath, which contrary to everyone else’s opinion in Westeros he seems to have actually taken seriously, I suspect he simply didn’t care what people thought of him. Or even more, in an odd way it may have been self-flagellation for all of his self-loathing. Jaime was in love with his twin sister and guilty of incest ( eventually adulterous incest ), book spoiler in possession of the ugly secret and de facto party to the truly horrendous betrayal of his beloved little brother, had betrayed his solemn oath and was just generally fucked. At some level, subconscious or not, he may have figured it was just appropriate that everyone despised him. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-question-spoilers-within/713013/35 "2015-03-11T20:10:42Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > 1. How did Littlefinger manage to get “assigned” to Vale by Joffrey? Wasn’t that a bit coincidential? > [@Telperion](#): > > Not that coincidental I would think, since house Baelish is from the Vale. Also, Peter had grown up with Lysa and Catelyn as a ward of house Tully in the Riverlands. So he was the obvious envoy to the Vale, since he already had a close relationship with Lysa (in fact closer than anyone suspected!). ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-question-spoilers-within/713013/36 "2015-03-11T23:29:32Z")
Thanks for answering my seemingly endless questions! I think the show is brilliant. There are almost no wasted lines - just about everything spoken seems to have meaning. Here are some more: Why did Tyrion send the daughter Myrcella to Dorne? If it was safety, why not also send Tommen? Are the other cities such as Braavos, Pentos and Qarth supposed to be wealthier/nicer than Westeros? It seems like there is more trade, activity, etc. in these places. I suppose there are reasons why they aren’t targets in this game of thrones? Finally, this “trial by combat” option is somewhat odd to me. Tyrion is saved by this a couple of times. Is this option only available to higher classes? I’m surprised that Lysa and Catelyn agree to it. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-question-spoilers-within/713013/37 "2015-03-11T23:48:43Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > In addition Jaime was and is essentially fatalistic. Having forsworn his oath, which contrary to everyone else’s opinion in Westeros he seems to have actually taken seriously, I suspect he simply didn’t care what people thought of him. Or even more, in an odd way it may have been self-flagellation for all of his self-loathing. Jaime was in love with his twin sister and guilty of incest ( eventually adulterous incest ), book spoiler in possession of the ugly secret and de facto party to the truly horrendous betrayal of his beloved little brother, had betrayed his solemn oath and was just generally fucked. At some level, subconscious or not, he may have figured it was just appropriate that everyone despised him. I think it is more than that. Jamie joined the Kingsguard as an idealistic teenager and then came face to face with the horrible reality of what “honor” entails. He sees the other kingsguard he served with being treated as heroes who’s tales are told to small children for serving and defending a monster while he is reviled for doing the right thing. People might not know what he did, but they do know what the other guys did and strongly support it. If honor means standing by while the king rapes kills and tortures and dishonor means saving hundreds of thousands of lives then you can’t really blame him for choosing to be known as dishonorable. He didn’t explain himself to Ned because he doesn’t care one bit what he or anyone else thinks. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-question-spoilers-within/713013/38 "2015-03-12T00:37:18Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > Why did Tyrion send the daughter Myrcella to Dorne? If it was safety, why not also send Tommen? Alliance with Dorne through marriage, for one. Tyrion is smart enough to understand the necessity. Tommen was the heir to the throne unless Joffrey had kids, so they wouldn’t send him off. > [@](#): > > Are the other cities such as Braavos, Pentos and Qarth supposed to be wealthier/nicer than Westeros? It seems like there is more trade, activity, etc. in these places. I suppose there are reasons why they aren’t targets in this game of thrones? Some are nicer and some are not. Bravos has “bad” weather, but those 3 are decent cities. It wouldn’t be nice to be a slave in the ones that allow it (some of the 9 “Free Cities” aren’t free, Bravos is the most anti-slavery). Culturally, they are more civilized in some ways but not in others. They are not targets because the Gamers of Thrones only have a claim towards Westeros. Nothing stopping someone from conquering (or “liberating” in Daenerys’ case), it’s just not “theirs.” > [@](#): > > Finally, this “trial by combat” option is somewhat odd to me. Tyrion is saved by this a couple of times. Is this option only available to higher classes? I’m surprised that Lysa and Catelyn agree to it. The winner’s claim is true because the Gods would not allow a liar to win. You know, according to the culture. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-question-spoilers-within/713013/39 "2015-03-12T03:58:47Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Alliance with Dorne through marriage, for one. Tyrion is smart enough to understand the necessity. Tommen was the heir to the throne unless Joffrey had kids, so they wouldn’t send him off. Not only that, but you wouldn’t send both kids to the same place. Especially sending the heir to an uncertain ally. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-question-spoilers-within/713013/40 "2015-03-12T04:48:56Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > Are the other cities such as Braavos, Pentos and Qarth supposed to be wealthier/nicer than Westeros? It seems like there is more trade, activity, etc. in these places. I suppose there are reasons why they aren’t targets in this game of thrones? Essos (where Braavos, Pentos, and Qarth) is, in general, far richer than Westeros. The reason they aren’t targets is because the Westerosi couldn’t take the cities if they tried. Braavos and Pentos could just buy mercenaries that would turn Westeros forces to mincemeat. Qarth is even richer than Braavos and Pentos. Westeros is kind of considered a backwater. > [@](#): > > Finally, this “trial by combat” option is somewhat odd to me. Tyrion is saved by this a couple of times. Is this option only available to higher classes? I’m surprised that Lysa and Catelyn agree to it. Well it did exist in our world as well (mostly a Germanic tradition which made its way into England): > **[Trial by combat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_by_combat)** > > Trial by combat (also wager of battle, trial by battle or judicial duel) was a method of Germanic law to settle accusations in the absence of witnesses or a confession in which two parties in dispute fought in single combat; the winner of the fight was proclaimed to be right. In essence, it was a judicially sanctioned duel. It remained in use throughout the European Middle Ages, gradually disappearing in the course of the 16th century. > Unlike trial by ordeal in general, which is known to ma... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-question-spoilers-within/713013.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-question-spoilers-within/713013.md?page=3)