# game of thrones redo season 8 change.org petition **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 16, 2019, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-redo-season-8-change-org-petition/834032 "2019-05-16T00:59:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2019, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-redo-season-8-change-org-petition/834032/121 "2019-05-22T00:40:46Z")
Hated or not is irrelevant. She wanted to make herself feared, as she explicitly stated. Mission accomplished. She’d been talking about burning cities for years and years. In the real world, razing cities is an actual thing. It doesn’t automatically target you for assassination. Quite the opposite, actually. Seems pretty clear. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2019, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-redo-season-8-change-org-petition/834032/122 "2019-05-22T01:26:21Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > …She’d been talking about burning cities for years and years. > … And another fictional character, Ralph Kramden, famously talked for years and years about hitting his wife so hard that her body would be shot to the moon. So of course that makes him a wife-beater, right? The writers of that show successfully established that about him, right? That he was a wife-beater? That he was the kind of person who’d hit his wife? Because he talked about it, that means he _is_ a wife-beater—case closed. Right? …The claim that remarks made by Dany in previous episodes established her, plausibly, as a person who would murder innocent civilians, is unsupported by logic or sense. That won’t stop people from continuing to make the claim, of course, because the drive to defend the writing of this show is very strong for some viewers. But that doesn’t make the claim reasonable, much less correct. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2019, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-redo-season-8-change-org-petition/834032/123 "2019-05-22T01:42:42Z")
You’re just flat-out wrong and your arguments are starting to sound willfully obtuse. If Ralph Kramden beat the everliving shit out of his wife, would you say his many previous declarations that he would do just that take on a different tone in retrospect? What if while he was making those threats, he also crucified hundreds of people on a multiple-mile stretch of road? How about if he burned prisoners alive? Denial isn’t just a river in Egypt… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2019, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-redo-season-8-change-org-petition/834032/124 "2019-05-22T01:49:16Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > And another fictional character, Ralph Kramden, famously talked for years and years about hitting his wife so hard that her body would be shot to the moon. Oh. Okay. I didn’t realize this is the kind of discussion you’re looking for. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2019, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-redo-season-8-change-org-petition/834032/125 "2019-05-22T12:43:00Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > In GoT, _there was no military force encamped all over Westeros._ No military force held Westeros in defiance of Dany. The KL leader had hired mercenaries and ordered her forces to hold the city and portions of the coast. That was it. The North had decided to break off from the Iron Throne, as Sansa mentioned to Dany earlier in the season, plus every local lord has their own local military force which could opt to turn against Dany, even if they hadn’t yet. Conquerors have razed cities throughout history, claiming that it makes no sense for a fictional character to act in a way which countless historical people have and in which more than a dozen specific examples have been provided is just willfull obtuseness. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2019, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-redo-season-8-change-org-petition/834032/126 "2019-05-22T14:45:15Z")
The assumption of this petition is that the actors would be on board. Multiple actors have called this petition straight out insulting. Would the petitioners be okay with randos playing the same parts? ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2019, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-redo-season-8-change-org-petition/834032/127 "2019-05-22T15:07:34Z")
how many of the signers are adults and still live in mom’s basement? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2019, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-redo-season-8-change-org-petition/834032/128 "2019-05-22T18:05:38Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If you’re sticking to the first category, there’s no reason to take criticism or mocking of the second and third categories as applying to you. I was going to just agree to disagree rather than going back to the other thread to show what the criticism and mocking were actually applicable to, in context. But here’s Pantastic in this thread with > [@](#): > > If they criticized Dany acting like a typical conquerer and matching what she’s been foreshadowed to do since season 2, they deserve it. which is a clear enough example for me, so there you go. If you think all of your personal criticism and mockery has been confined to appropriate targets, cool. I guess there’s no reason for you take my complaint as applying to you. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2019, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-redo-season-8-change-org-petition/834032/129 "2019-05-22T19:15:20Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > which is a clear enough example for me, so there you go. If you think all of your personal criticism and mockery has been confined to appropriate targets, cool. I guess there’s no reason for you take my complaint as applying to you. If you are complaining that the show is ‘ruined’ because you think it’s out of character for a character to burn a city when she’s been portrayed as wanting to burn cities to the ground with her dragons she she acquired dragons, and as a violent conqueror who believes it’s her destiny to rule, and who comes from a family with a family history of violently burning people who defy their rule and raises their children to believe that’s right, and explictly endorses the ‘we burn who we want’ philosophy of your family, then it’s perfectly reasonable for people to ‘insult’ you by pointing out the absurdity of your stance and the fact that your outrage makes no sense at all. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2019, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-redo-season-8-change-org-petition/834032/130 "2019-05-22T21:37:03Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > The North had decided to break off from the Iron Throne, as Sansa mentioned to Dany earlier in the season, plus every local lord has their own local military force which could opt to turn against Dany, even if they hadn’t yet. Conquerors have razed cities throughout history, \*\*claiming that it makes no sense for a fictional character to act in a way \*\*which countless historical people have and in which more than a dozen specific examples have been provided is just willfull obtuseness. That straw man argument (with ad hominem thrown in for extra fallaciousness) is singularly unconvincing. No one here has claimed that fictional characters cannot plausibly raze cities. You believe the last season, or at least the development of Daenerys murdering thousands of innocent civilians, is well and plausibly written. I do not. Clearly neither of us is going to change the other’s view. my emphasis ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2019, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-redo-season-8-change-org-petition/834032/131 "2019-05-22T21:50:34Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I was going to just agree to disagree rather than going back to the other thread to show what the criticism and mocking were actually applicable to, in context. But here’s Pantastic in this thread with > > which is a clear enough example for me, so there you go. If you think all of your personal criticism and mockery has been confined to appropriate targets, cool. I guess there’s no reason for you take my complaint as applying to you. Am I referring to you when talking about whether you’re referring to me when I’m talking about whether I’m referring to you when… Inception snark. I’m out. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2019, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-redo-season-8-change-org-petition/834032/132 "2019-05-22T21:59:03Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > That’s right. And that’s _exactly_ what makes the WW2 bombings useless as a defense of the GoT writers’ choice to have Dany destroy Kings Landing. > > In WW2 the Allies, faced with a weakened but still formidable army that held the majority of a continent, needed to persuade the leader(s) who’d ordered that army to take all that territory, to stand down. Well, no. The European bombing campaign began during the height of the Axis military success, and the goal was to degrade Germany’s ability to wage war. Given the enormous importance of King’s Landing in GoT, whoever holds it must wield a significant advantage in the over-all struggle to rule the country. If Danys felt that she could rule the country without King’s Landing, or if she felt that she couldn’t take it and reliably control it, it makes absolute sense to torch it so her enemies can’t use it against her. > [@](#): > > In GoT, _there was no military force encamped all over Westeros._ No military force held Westeros in defiance of Dany. The KL leader had hired mercenaries and ordered her forces to hold the city and portions of the coast. That was it. > > In GoT, there was no equivalent of the Nazi Army holding Westeros, and thus no need to put on a show of destruction to force a non-existent army holding the land mass to stand down. So, if there aren’t any other military forces in Westeros, why wasn’t Danys already queen before she burned down the city? > [@Sherrerd](#): > > That straw man argument (with ad hominem thrown in for extra fallaciousness) is singularly unconvincing. No one here has claimed that fictional characters cannot plausibly raze cities. > > You believe the last season, or at least the development of Daenerys murdering thousands of innocent civilians, is well and plausibly written. I do not. > > Clearly neither of us is going to change the other’s view. Hasn’t she been murdering innocents pretty much since the jump, though? She initiated a war of conquest to satisfy her own personal political agenda, right? Even if the countries she was invading were run by utter bastards, she’s still knowingly causing the deaths of tens of thousands of people who haven’t done anything other than be born in the nation she wants to own. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-redo-season-8-change-org-petition/834032/133 "2019-05-23T01:08:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Am I referring to you when talking about whether you’re referring to me when I’m talking about whether I’m referring to you when… > > Inception snark. I’m out. OK, cool? I mean, somebody is taking something personally here. What I see is repeated references to whiny crybabies living in their parents’ basements who think the writers kicked their dogs personally etc. And a persistent undertone that I didn’t _understand_ Game of Thrones if I didn’t like it. Didn’t fucking understand _Game of Thrones_, which had dragon wings come out of the dragon lady to underscore the connection between a dragon and the dragon lady. No. I thought it was bad storytelling. Still, I abide. I haven’t even “complained” or been “outraged” about anything, to the extent anyone has in these threads. And you guys are being weird. And I’m not the first to try to point it out. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-redo-season-8-change-org-petition/834032/134 "2019-05-23T01:47:28Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > OK, cool? I mean, somebody is taking something personally here. What I see is repeated references to whiny crybabies living in their parents’ basements who think the writers kicked their dogs personally etc. Right. People who are signing petitions to remake the season are kind of being whiny crybabies, IMO. Are you? I don’t think you are. > [@](#): > > And a persistent undertone that I didn’t _understand_ Game of Thrones if I didn’t like it. Didn’t fucking understand _Game of Thrones_, which had dragon wings come out of the dragon lady to underscore the connection between a dragon and the dragon lady. Are people saying you personally didn’t understand it? Because some folks are clearly missing big chunks of the story. I don’t think you are. > [@](#): > > No. I thought it was bad storytelling. Still, I abide. I haven’t even “complained” or been “outraged” about anything, to the extent anyone has in these threads. And you guys are being weird. And I’m not the first to try to point it out. If you haven’t “complained” or been “outraged” about anything, are you sure folks are talking about you? These are the first posts I’ve noticed by you in these threads, which makes it seem super weird that you’re assuming the mockery of whiny crybabies is directed at you. And extra weird that when I’m distinguishing between reasonable criticism and OTT silliness, you quote Pantastic, who I don’t think was talking about your criticisms anyway. And then you tell me you weren’t talking about me, but then you say “you guys,” in response to me. It’s very confusing. I don’t know where you’re coming from, or why you’re feeling personally insulted. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-redo-season-8-change-org-petition/834032/135 "2019-05-23T05:11:46Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > What I see is repeated references to whiny crybabies living in their parents’ basements who think the writers kicked their dogs personally etc. I see a petition to remake season 8, which initially struck me as Peak Whiny Crybaby. Then I saw a thread talking about shareholders suing over it, which shattered the previous Peak Whiny Crybaby high water mark. That’s mainly what’s being reacted to, I think. I don’t associate either of those things with you, though, so it seems weird to me that you’re taking the response to those things personally. Separately and unrelated, I see a non-whiny non-crybaby complaint centered around the idea that razing a city is an automatic loss for the one doing the razing because a) nobody will ever follow that person, and b) everyone will target that person for assassination. The fact that neither of those things is true in the real world doesn’t shake the firm belief that both of those things must absolutely be true. ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-redo-season-8-change-org-petition/834032/136 "2019-05-23T11:40:40Z")
> [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](#): > > It is quite obvious that the showrunners stopped caring and just wanted to wrap it up as soon as possible so they could earn some big DisneyBucks with Star Wars. The coffee cup, the countless inaccuracies (Gendry Rivers/them thinking Dickon Tarly is the older brother etc), the incomplete and unsatisfying character arcs, etc… it’s all clear as day. > > It is a shame and upsetting for anyone who got invested in the show, especially given how high the bar was set. > > The petition is catharsis, nothing more. > [@RickJay](#): > > A coffee cup in scene is an error completely unrelated to writing. I’m not sure why this is important to point out. My point is that the signs that the showrunners were taking every shortcut possible to reach a conclusion are plain as day (which would include not taking care with the editing process as well as writing). HBO wanted it to last 10 seasons. Based on the source material, this was easily achieveable. We even have a release date for D&D’s contribution to the Star Wars machine: [https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a27467659/star-wars-movie-game-of-thrones-showrunners-release-date-2022/](https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a27467659/star-wars-movie-game-of-thrones-showrunners-release-date-2022/) I’m not sure how much more obvious it can be at this point, but whatever. It’s a shame, because the potential for Game of Thrones was incredible. But a petition is just pathetic and whiny. D&D are just as much not your bitch as GRRM. There’s nobody to blame. They had no obligation to tell you more bed time stories. Just move on. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-redo-season-8-change-org-petition/834032/137 "2019-05-23T14:01:07Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > As I keep saying Martin deserves the blame for not finishing the books. But somehow to many he walks on water so he is untouchable. So instead they blast showrunners, HBO,etc. You have to admit that IF they’re concerned with how the fans would view them, they’re pretty stupid for developing a series that they KNEW would be finished before GRRM would have finished the book series. I mean, even had GRRM stuck to the same six-year interval that he had between "A Feast for Crows and “A Dance for Dragons”, he’d have released “The Winds of Winter” 2 years ago, and we’d be looking at 4 more years before “A Dream of Spring” (or whatever the seventh book will be named). The showrunners KNEW going in that they were likely to outstrip the books by the fifth or sixth season, no matter what happened, and that after that point, they’d be ahead of the books. So whatever happened in the TV series was \*\*\*always \*\*\*going to be their baby, to their fault or credit. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-redo-season-8-change-org-petition/834032/138 "2019-05-23T14:17:43Z")
I don’t think the showrunners are worried about fans, they were hired by HBO to do a series based on popular books. They were not going to say no to that job. And as they and Martin have said many times, Martin told them the outline for how it ends. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-redo-season-8-change-org-petition/834032/139 "2019-05-23T14:26:27Z")
FYI, Martin addresses how the books might differ from the TV series [here](http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/20/an-ending/). In short, some character who didn’t exist in the series might in the books, as well as some who died in the series but not in the books. And the books will be far more detailed than the show was. (He estimates that the books might be 3,000 pages in manuscript format.) Edited to add, he never says whether the ending would be different but as said, the show runners met with him and heard from him how he planned the story to go. Now, they might have thrown that away and written their own ending (the contract almost certainly allows for that) but I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-redo-season-8-change-org-petition/834032/140 "2019-05-23T14:51:44Z")
Slate has an interview with [Ronald D. Moore](https://slate.com/culture/2019/05/game-of-thrones-finale-backlash-battlestar-galactica-showrunner-interview.html), showrunner of the rebooted _Battlestar Galactica_ (which also had a final episode that was controversial among fans). They talk, among other things, about the sense of almost-ownership that fans can sometimes feel for a show, and the potential vehemence of fan reactions. And also about the fact that the growth of Twitter has made it possible for the _Game of Thrones_ creators to have an instant feedback that wasn’t quite as feasible for him back in the _Galactica_ days. Perhaps the most relevant quote, with regard to what the showrunners likely think of the “re-do the season” petition: > [@Ronald D. Moore](#): > > I try to keep that out of my writers’ offices as much as possible—don’t start a pitch or a conversation in the story room by saying, “I was reading this fan reaction on Twitter where the fans don’t like this, or the fans do like that.” Again, it’s not a democracy. I don’t give a shit. Like, what do _we_ think is the best? We’re being paid to use our creative instincts and our creative ideas. We’re not being paid to do a survey and try to marry our material to what we think the Twitterverse is interested in. For the record, Moore also says that he thought the GoT finale was “great. I was very satisfied as a viewer.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-redo-season-8-change-org-petition/834032.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-redo-season-8-change-org-petition/834032.md?page=8)