# Game of Thrones S3 - open spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 30, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362 "2013-03-30T16:23:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/241 "2013-04-18T00:48:44Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > Drogo isn’t a main character. Only because he’s dead. Until he died, he looked like one of the major driving forces of the plot, especially during his sworn rant after the attempted poisoning of Daenerys. > [@](#): > > Killing of characters like Ygritte and Shae isn’t all that “WOW! I can’t believe they did that!” It would be nearly unthinkable to kill of the love interests of main characters in your typical fantasy story, not until the end anywa. > [@](#): > > Killing off Tywin is “thank god!”. Again, Tywin is a major villain and a major vector of the action. In fact, he seems like the puppetmaster for several other villains. It is very unusual for someone like him not to last until the end. > [@](#): > > If Martin was really that rule-breaking, Tyrion would’ve been dead several times. Probably Arya too (and I bet they make it to the climax of the story). I think you’re taking a “oh, now that I see how the trick is done, it’s not really all that impressive” approach to this. For someone who came to many of these developments absolutely cold, I was stunned. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/242 "2013-04-18T02:32:31Z")
Ok Yookeroo, do you have some examples of works that kill off more main characters mid-run? Excluding last stand type stories where everybody dies, like 300 or the Alamo, I can’t think of any. I especially can’t think of any TV shows like that. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/243 "2013-04-18T02:53:54Z")
Yeah, basically the argument seems to amount to, “Well, how come there are still _any_ main characters still alive?” The problem is that if you kill off all the main characters while you still have several books left in the series, then _someone else_ is going to become the main characters. And, unless everyone dies at the end, some main character will be around for the last few chapters, meaning that it’s impossible to kill off a main character at all. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/244 "2013-04-18T03:20:51Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I think you’re taking a “oh, now that I see how the trick is done, it’s not really all that impressive” approach to this. For someone who came to many of these developments absolutely cold, I was stunned. Well said. I mean look at who in most fantasy series wouldn’t have died - Tywin, Catelyn are those I never thought would have died. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/245 "2013-04-18T04:14:42Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Only because he’s dead. Until he died, he looked like one of the major driving forces of the plot, especially during his sworn rant after the attempted poisoning of Daenerys. Ummm…so? He may have “looked like” a major character before he died, but Dany is, and was from the beginning, the character driving the plot. He wasn’t a major character. > [@Acsenray](#): > > Again, Tywin is a major villain and a major vector of the action. In fact, he seems like the puppetmaster for several other villains. It is very unusual for someone like him not to last until the end. Meh. He’s definitely not someone who you dare not get attached to because he might die. That’s the thing that kept getting said over and over. > [@Acsenray](#): > > I think you’re taking a “oh, now that I see how the trick is done, it’s not really all that impressive” approach to this. Well, obviously. I kept hearing how awesome and transgressive this series is and this is one reason why it’s so great. But it really isn’t all that boundary pushing. > [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > Ok Yookeroo, do you have some examples of works that kill off more main characters mid-run? No (at least not offhand). I’m not saying GRRM doesn’t do this more than a typical fantasy writer does. But this aspect of the story is very overstated. And overrated. It’s a big sprawling story with lots and lots of characters. Some of them get killed. That two of them are pretty major isn’t usual (and it’s to GRRM’s credit the he’s not afraid to do this). But the fanboys will have you thinking that ANYONE will die. I bet that Tyrion and Arya survive til the climax. So will Bran. And Jon Snow. Jaime too. And letting them live isn’t wrong. Us readers have invested plenty in these characters. But let’s not get carried away with the idea of “DON’T GET INVESTED IN THE CHARACTER…THEY’LL DIE!!!”. That just sets everyone up for, well, disappointment isn’t quite the right word, but when we see Arya survive long after she should be dead, it makes it pretty obvious that GRRM isn’t exactly being revolutionary. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/246 "2013-04-18T04:47:51Z")
Your reasoning continues to be circular and you stubbornly refuse to consider context, so we might as well just leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![pjnlsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e8c25b/32.png) [@pjnlsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjnlsn)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/247 "2013-04-18T05:07:16Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > Ummm…so? He may have “looked like” a major character before he died, but Dany is, and was from the beginning, the character driving the plot. He wasn’t a major character. > > Meh. He’s definitely not someone who you dare not get attached to because he might die. That’s the thing that kept getting said over and over. > > Well, obviously. I kept hearing how awesome and transgressive this series is and this is one reason why it’s so great. But it really isn’t all that boundary pushing. > > No (at least not offhand). I’m not saying GRRM doesn’t do this more than a typical fantasy writer does. But this aspect of the story is very overstated. And overrated. It’s a big sprawling story with lots and lots of characters. Some of them get killed. That two of them are pretty major isn’t usual (and it’s to GRRM’s credit the he’s not afraid to do this). But the fanboys will have you thinking that ANYONE will die. I bet that Tyrion and Arya survive til the climax. So will Bran. And Jon Snow. Jaime too. > > And letting them live isn’t wrong. Us readers have invested plenty in these characters. But let’s not get carried away with the idea of “DON’T GET INVESTED IN THE CHARACTER…THEY’LL DIE!!!”. That just sets everyone up for, well, disappointment isn’t quite the right word, but when we see Arya survive long after she should be dead, it makes it pretty obvious that GRRM isn’t exactly being revolutionary. How do you know she should be dead? And everything’s relative. GRRM wrote the red wedding with the greatest sense of loss and sadness, according to interview, for that loss (not to give too much away) but he wrote it anyway, because he thought it was the best thing for the story. He’s quite revolutionary in that regard, and I think it makes the story all that much more gripping. And the readers get that much more invested in it, and love it, and that’s the goal of good fiction, it’s to provoke feeling. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/248 "2013-04-18T11:35:01Z")
Now I’m imagining the Red Wedding portrayed in slow motion like in _Platoon_. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/249 "2013-04-18T13:05:44Z")
Watch out - that might be just how HBO shoots it. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/250 "2013-04-18T13:36:13Z")
Yeah, with the theme music playing dramatically as the crossbow bolts explode as they hit flesh. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/251 "2013-04-18T18:36:41Z")
> [@pjnlsn](#): > > How do you know she should be dead? Living what she’s been through is quite the longshot. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. But is sure isn’t revolutionary. Pretty typical way to treat a protagonist actually. > [@pjnlsn](#): > > And everything’s relative. GRRM wrote the red wedding with the greatest sense of loss and sadness, according to interview, for that loss (not to give too much away) but he wrote it anyway, because he thought it was the best thing for the story. Great. So? > [@pjnlsn](#): > > He’s quite revolutionary in that regard, For feeling a sense of great loss for his characters? For doing what was best for the story? Neither is revolutionary. For killing off such a major character? Unusual, but I wouldn’t call it “revolutionary”. > [@pjnlsn](#): > > and I think it makes the story all that much more gripping. And the readers get that much more invested in it, and love it, and that’s the goal of good fiction, it’s to provoke feeling. That’s pretty obvious. Has anyone claimed otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/252 "2013-04-18T18:49:55Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Now I’m imagining the Red Wedding portrayed in slow motion like in _Platoon_. As long as Robb falls to his knees with his arms raised while crossbow bolts rip through him in slo-mo and his friends are pulled away while trying to get back to him, all will be well for HBO. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/253 "2013-04-18T19:10:23Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > …Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Is she sword-worthy? > [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > As long as Robb falls to his knees with his arms raised while crossbow bolts rip through him in slo-mo and his friends are pulled away while trying to get back to him, all will be well for HBO. And at least one of them has to say in a deep drawl, “Nooooooooo!” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/254 "2013-04-18T19:19:06Z")
All the dialogue and sound slow, low, and underwatery. With heartbeats. ---
**Author:** ![pjnlsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e8c25b/32.png) [@pjnlsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjnlsn)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/255 "2013-04-18T20:39:51Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > Living what she’s been through is quite the longshot. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. But is sure isn’t revolutionary. Pretty typical way to treat a protagonist actually. > > Great. So? > > For feeling a sense of great loss for his characters? For doing what was best for the story? Neither is revolutionary. For killing off such a major character? Unusual, but I wouldn’t call it “revolutionary”. > > That’s pretty obvious. Has anyone claimed otherwise? In general, it’s pretty uncommon to have prominent characters, not specifically created to die for the effect, to just die because it’s a natural consequence of what they’ve been doing. There is something revolutionary about the way he writes it, and you can feel it when you read it. But it’s not as though every single thing in the books is unusual. ---
**Author:** ![Woeg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Woeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Woeg)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/256 "2013-04-19T15:17:33Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The descriptions of Brienne and Tyrion in the books emphasize that they are _ugly_. Neither actor could be fairly described as both. In fact, Dinklage is reasonably handsome. \In a world where everyone is beautiful… [Queue scene of Tyrion being, well, short] ..it’s the _little_ details that matter. And the difference between great beauty… [Queue scene of Margery Tyrell being waifish] …and hideousness… [Queue scene of Brienne being, well, tall] …is a matter of a few inches. \ ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/257 "2013-04-19T17:11:31Z")
But Brienne wears glasses! And has a ponytail! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/258 "2013-04-19T17:16:29Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > But Brienne wears glasses! And has a ponytail! You’re right. What a dog. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/259 "2013-04-19T19:54:25Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > Well, a huge portion of it is descriptions of meals, rushes, and nose scratching. If I was OCD, I’d love to literally cut out all of the food descriptions from the paperbacks just to see the result. And pissing and shitting, for some reason. I think the phrase “shook the last drops off” alone appears four or five times in Dance. No one cares, George. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/260 "2013-04-19T19:58:17Z")
I love all that stuff. It really grounds the story in the physical reality of a pre-industrial world. You can bet if you found yourself in that kind of an environment, then what the food is like, what you’re sleeping on, what your healing scars feel like, and where and how you use the toilet are going to be among the most immediate of your experiences. Myself, I keep thinking, dang, if I were in that world I would be bereft of my eyeglasses, my lipitor, and my C-pap machine. And I’m going to be shitting in a pot stored under the bed … if I’m lucky. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362.md?page=14)