# Game of Thrones S3 - open spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 30, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362 "2013-03-30T16:23:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/341 "2013-04-29T15:45:05Z")
It is pretty dumb, but to be fair to the series, Robb has always downplayed/discounted the negative impact of snubbing the Freys. \*Before \*I ever read the books and knew about the Red Wedding, I was really frustrated with Robb acting like that was no big deal. So at least it’s a consistent character trait. Personally I feel like they lost the thread of Robb’s character and his fatal flaw of Honor at all costs by swapping out Jeyne Westerling for Talisa. Now he’s honor-bound to behead Karstark, to his own detriment, but somehow brushes off his huge promise to the Freys like nothing. One of the few places I feel the show has fallen short of the books. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/342 "2013-04-29T15:53:32Z")
Yeah, that is one of the few missteps the TV show has made. It was unnecessary to create Talisa, but I suspect they wanted to give Robb more drama/romance. In the book, his romance and marriage to Jeyne all happens “offscreen.” ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/343 "2013-04-29T16:34:30Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I think all this stuff is great. But I wish he would find a place to stop introducing new characters. Like I don’t think we really needed the Young Griff and Dornish Prince plots. This. A thousand times this. When he first introduced the new character, and new place I almost gave up on the book right there. The last thing he needed in book four was a new person. He has plenty of people already in the story to work with. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/344 "2013-04-29T16:49:34Z")
Young Griff was introduced in the first book when Dany went to the house of the undying. The mummer dragon had to appear at some point. And the biggest problem with the Dornish prince stuff was how much of it there was in the books, specially since it ended up going nowhere. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/345 "2013-04-29T17:02:27Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Young Griff was introduced in the first book when Dany went to the house of the undying. The mummer dragon had to appear at some point. And the biggest problem with the Dornish prince stuff was how much of it there was in the books, specially since it ended up going nowhere. I prefer to speak only for myself in general, but I have a hunch that a lot of us skimmed over all of the vague prophecy flimflam. I was always much more interested in the current plot at hand, and the prophecies and songs and signs and wonders will either factor in or they won’t. I do think the story will be much more interesting if Aegon VI is the real deal. A red-herring would just be yet another par for the course reversal. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/346 "2013-04-29T17:26:29Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > This. A thousand times this. > > When he first introduced the new character, and new place I almost gave up on the book right there. The last thing he needed in book four was a new person. He has plenty of people already in the story to work with. I believe I read here on the Dope that he was planning a large time jump forward, but then was prevailed upon to write out the story between the end of book 3 and the point he wanted to jump to, and that’s what we got in books 4 and 5. It certainly feels like that. Lots of meandering filler, rather than plot advancement with the characters we’ve come to care about. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/347 "2013-04-29T20:57:18Z")
Can I just say here that the people over in the no-spoilers version of this thread are _so too adorable for words_? Ooooo I bet Dany’s going to land on Westeros next episode! I’m so glad Robb’s finally making decisions again, now he’s going to get somewhere! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/348 "2013-04-30T02:44:35Z")
Does Selmy know about Jorah’s betrayal or not? It was weird that they seemed to be implying that he’d never heard about it back in King’s Landing. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/349 "2013-04-30T02:47:33Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Can I just say here that the people over in the no-spoilers version of this thread are _so too adorable for words_? > > Ooooo I bet Dany’s going to land on Westeros next episode! > > I’m so glad Robb’s finally making decisions again, now he’s going to get somewhere! > > 😉 I wish I was that unsuspecting of what’s coming up. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/350 "2013-04-30T02:49:31Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > I prefer to speak only for myself in general, but I have a hunch that a lot of us skimmed over all of the vague prophecy flimflam. Yes, I have a bad memory for the prophesies because they always seem so vague and unrelated to what’s happening at the moment and so there’s no “hook” to keep it grounded in my mind. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/351 "2013-04-30T05:36:15Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I believe it was Willas Tyrell for both cases in the book. Was it just me, or did Tywin refer to Loras as being the heir of Highgardern? 😕 That would imply he doesn’t have any older brothers; have they even been mentioned on the show? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/352 "2013-04-30T06:31:21Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Can I just say here that the people over in the no-spoilers version of this thread are _so too adorable for words_? > > Ooooo I bet Dany’s going to land on Westeros next episode! > > I’m so glad Robb’s finally making decisions again, now he’s going to get somewhere! > > 😉 I bet Dany and Jon get married. Their wedding will probably be the last episode of this season. I wonder what goes on in the rest of the books in the series? ---
**Author:** ![Mogle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mogle/32/12021_2.png) [@Mogle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mogle)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/353 "2013-04-30T08:19:20Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Was it just me, or did Tywin refer to Loras as being the heir of Highgardern? 😕 That would imply he doesn’t have any older brothers; have they even been mentioned on the show? He did, the writers probably didn’t want to introduce a new character that doesn’t even appear on screen, so they just made Loras the heir of Highgarden. Since he won’t actually marry anyone it doesn’t matter much. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/354 "2013-04-30T10:19:07Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > Does Selmy know about Jorah’s betrayal or not? It was weird that they seemed to be implying that he’d never heard about it back in King’s Landing. I don’t think so. That’s why they had the “wait, I thought the Lord Commander was on the Small Council” conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Reverse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@Reverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reverse)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/355 "2013-04-30T11:18:10Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > Does Selmy know about Jorah’s betrayal or not? It was weird that they seemed to be implying that he’d never heard about it back in King’s Landing. He definitely knows about it. He was the lord commander of the Kingsguard and even though he may not have been a member of the small council at some point someone on the small council would’ve told him all about it, possibly the angry drunk king. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/356 "2013-04-30T12:35:37Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Can I just say here that the people over in the no-spoilers version of this thread are _so too adorable for words_? > > Ooooo I bet Dany’s going to land on Westeros next episode! > > I’m so glad Robb’s finally making decisions again, now he’s going to get somewhere! > > 😉 I know! Though, I think there are plenty of people, \*\*SenorBeef \*\*particularly, who won’t be terribly surprised when Robb buys it. The show has set up his horrible decisions regarding the Freys, as well as the decline of his war campaign - it’s not out of the blue. It’s possible they’ll really play up the Freys being happy to have Edmure, to make the moment of the Red Wedding shocking, I guess. In the book, the whole thing from the moment the Starks arrive reeks of doom, though. > [@Reverse](#): > > He definitely knows about it. He was the lord commander of the Kingsguard and even though he may not have been a member of the small council at some point someone on the small council would’ve told him all about it, possibly the angry drunk king. I think he’s just playing it close to the vest. Jorah wasn’t being overly subtle, and I think Selmy wants to take his measure a bit before deciding whether to tell. And when he does, he sure as hell won’t be cluing in Jorah first. They planted the seeds of their conflict this episode - within the next two, he’ll probably get mad enough to drop the bomb. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/357 "2013-04-30T15:36:55Z")
Mormont has been with Dany for quite a while now. Selmy just showed up a few days ago. He needs to earn her trust before dropping that bomb, or he risks her thinking that he just wants to usurp Mormont’s position with her. It still makes sense this way. What I dislike is the rewrite of Robb’s marriage. There’s no honor in what he’s done in the show, as opposed to the book where he made one mistake and then had to make a difficult choice. His execution of Karstark rings very hollow now. And he sure seemed nonchalant about winning the Freys to his cause. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/358 "2013-05-01T00:27:14Z")
By the way, was there a reference to a future incident from the books when Tywinn claimed he will soon be making Joffrey do something he doesn’t want to do, or words to that effect? I don’t remember that line, or any event of that description. Unless Tywin arranged for Joffrey’s death. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/359 "2013-05-01T01:47:29Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > By the way, was there a reference to a future incident from the books when Tywinn claimed he will soon be making Joffrey do something he doesn’t want to do, or words to that effect? I don’t remember that line, or any event of that description. > > Unless Tywin arranged for Joffrey’s death. 😉 There’s a Tyrion POV chapter in SoS where Joffrey says something pissy to Tywin and Tywin has guards escort the King from the room as if he were sending a small child to bed. Tywin remarks that he’s going to need to give Joffrey a sharp lesson soon, and Tyrion agrees in his internal monologue, but then remembers the sharp lesson Tywin once gave him, the Tysha thing. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/360 "2013-05-01T02:25:41Z")
Chapter 53 —The small council gets the news of the Red Wedding. Joffrey demands that the Freys send him Robb’s head and he says that he will make Sansa kiss it. Tywin lectures him about kingship and how when people yield to him, he must be gracious. Tywin uses Aerys as an example and Joffrey retorts by saying that Tywin was scared of Aerys. When told to apologize by Cersei, Joffrey instead accuses Tywin of cowardice. Tywin then instructs Kevan to take Joffrey to bed and suggests that Pycelle give him dreamwine. Tywin then rebukes Cersei for failing to raise Joffrey properly and dismisses her. Tyrion warns that Joffrey is becoming another Aerys and Tywin says that Joffrey is young and there is time to teach him. That’s when he says, as SecretaryofEvil reports, “He requires a sharp lesson.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362.md?page=19)