# Game of Thrones S3 - open spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 30, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362 "2013-03-30T16:23:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/421 "2013-05-08T08:15:39Z")
double post. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/422 "2013-05-08T08:18:49Z")
As mentioned by someone else in the no spoiler thread, I’ve an issue with the scene where Joffrey is shown having murdered Littlefinger’s head whore (can’t remember her name). He makes Joffrey even worst than he is, and more importantly depicts Littlefinger as some kind of monster. I never perceived him as “evil” in the books. In fact, I rather liked him, especially after he left King’s Landing. Also, it’s weird to depict Varys as wanting to avoid chaos. When, later, he murders Tywin’s brother (can’t remember his name again), he precisely explains that he _wants_ chaos in the realm. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/423 "2013-05-08T08:54:24Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > As mentioned by someone else in the no spoiler thread, I’ve an issue with the scene where Joffrey is shown having murdered Littlefinger’s head whore (can’t remember her name). > > He makes Joffrey even worst than he is, and more importantly depicts Littlefinger as some kind of monster. I never perceived him as “evil” in the books. In fact, I rather liked him, especially after he left King’s Landing. > Also, it’s weird to depict Varys as wanting to avoid chaos. When, later, he murders Tywin’s brother (can’t remember his name again), he precisely explains that he _wants_ chaos in the realm. I think we are getting an insight into what Littlefinger actually is in the TV series before we see it in the books, he may well end up being the main villain of the piece. Poor Sansa. Anyone any idea why they changed Stannis from being the commander that ‘leads’ from the back to one that leads from the front? I am rereading again at the moment and it is mentioned a few times by various people. ---
**Author:** ![Reverse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@Reverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reverse)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/424 "2013-05-08T09:04:36Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > As mentioned by someone else in the no spoiler thread, I’ve an issue with the scene where Joffrey is shown having murdered Littlefinger’s head whore (can’t remember her name). > > He makes Joffrey even worst than he is, and more importantly depicts Littlefinger as some kind of monster. **I never perceived him as “evil” in the books**. In fact, I rather liked him, especially after he left King’s Landing. Emphasis; well, then you just weren’t paying attention. ---
**Author:** ![Mogle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mogle/32/12021_2.png) [@Mogle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mogle)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/425 "2013-05-08T09:35:48Z")
> [@martu](#): > > Anyone any idea why they changed Stannis from being the commander that ‘leads’ from the back to one that leads from the front? I am rereading again at the moment and it is mentioned a few times by various people. They did the same to Lord Tywin, I’d assume it’s because it looks cooler/is easier to do well on tv. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/426 "2013-05-08T10:53:31Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > As mentioned by someone else in the no spoiler thread, I’ve an issue with the scene where Joffrey is shown having murdered Littlefinger’s head whore (can’t remember her name). > > He makes Joffrey even worst than he is, and more importantly depicts Littlefinger as some kind of monster. I never perceived him as “evil” in the books. In fact, I rather liked him, especially after he left King’s Landing. > Also, it’s weird to depict Varys as wanting to avoid chaos. When, later, he murders Tywin’s brother (can’t remember his name again), he precisely explains that he _wants_ chaos in the realm. In the book Littlefinger has Jon Aryn killed. He probably has Ned Stark killed. He abducts Jeyne Poole into a sex slave academy and sells her to a guy that flays people. Littlefinger is absolutely fucking evil in the books. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/427 "2013-05-08T11:10:06Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Also, it’s weird to depict Varys as wanting to avoid chaos. When, later, he murders Tywin’s brother (can’t remember his name again), he precisely explains that he _wants_ chaos in the realm. Kevan Lannister. In his Bond-villain speech, Varys doesn’t say that he wants chaos. He said that he wants the Lannisters to fail in their attempt to secure the realm, and, thus, their rule, because he wants to replace them with something else. Specifically, he says that Tommen will never be a good king, because he has been taught that kingship is a _right_. Whereas, Young Griff has a chance at being a good king, because he has been taught that kingship is a _duty_. I might be wrong, but what Varys seems to want is good government. He doesn’t want to see thousands of common people suffering because of the petty resentments of a few at the top. I’m not sure that he will be able to get it, or even whether what he thinks is the solution could possibly get him what he wants. But more than anyone else, Varys is at least trying to take an analytic view of what the problem is with Westeros. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/428 "2013-05-08T11:11:52Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > In the book Littlefinger has Jon Aryn killed. He probably has Ned Stark killed. He abducts Jeyne Poole into a sex slave academy and sells her to a guy that flays people. Littlefinger is absolutely fucking evil in the books. And he’s trying to make sure that Sansa ends up as his lover, as a substitute for Catelyn. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/429 "2013-05-08T12:02:09Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > In the book Littlefinger has Jon Aryn killed. He probably has Ned Stark killed. He abducts Jeyne Poole into a sex slave academy and sells her to a guy that flays people. Having Jon Aryn or Ned Stark killed is mere regular politics in Westeros. On the other hand, I had no memory of him delivering any woman to someone (I assume Bolton’s bastard?) to be flayed. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/430 "2013-05-08T12:04:30Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Having Jon Aryn or Ned Stark killed is mere regular politics in Westeros. > > On the other hand, I had no memory of him delivering any woman to someone (I assume Bolton’s bastard?) to be flayed. Jeyne Poole is the one everyone is pretending is Arua Stark. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/431 "2013-05-08T12:05:08Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Kevan Lannister. In his Bond-villain speech, Varys doesn’t say that he wants chaos. He said that he wants the Lannisters to fail in their attempt to secure the realm, and, thus, their rule, because he wants to replace them with something else. Specifically, he says that Tommen will never be a good king, because he has been taught that kingship is a _right_. Whereas, Young Griff has a chance at being a good king, because he has been taught that kingship is a _duty_. > . I meant that he wanted to plunge the realm into chaos so that Griff could seize it and rule. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/432 "2013-05-08T12:06:56Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Jeyne Poole is the one everyone is pretending is Arua Stark. OK. I don’t have a good memory of names. And I had forgotten (or missed) that she had been “provided” by Littlefinger. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/433 "2013-05-08T12:07:01Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Having Jon Aryn or Ned Stark killed is mere regular politics in Westeros. > . I don’t know why you would think that. There are plenty of people who don’t consider murder of fellow nobles to be routine. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/434 "2013-05-08T12:38:43Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Ned was the Lord of Winterfell, the Warden of the North, and the recognized arbiter of the law in the region. Arya is none of those things. She’s not even an adult—even King Joffrey is subject to the rule of a Regent because he’s not of age. > > And she’s not even in a country where that law is applicable. She did it because she was personally offended by Dareon’s desertion, and she took his life into her own hands. > > It was cold, and it was unnecessary, and to top it off, it was in violation of the rules she was living under at the House of Black and White, where she was instructed not to act out in any way that Arya Stark would act. > > So she acted completely without any authority—she killed Dareon solely because she wanted to. I give you the flouting of the rules of the House of Black and White, but the legality of killing deserters from the Night Watch is not limited to circumstances following a judgement by a lord, and so far as I recall there’s no limit on the reach of that law either. More relevantly, Westoros and the Free Cities and the rest of the world don’t have “a system of laws, not men.” Law is what you can enforce in any given circumstance with might. By what right of law did Robert claim the Iron Throne? Arya acted with essentially the same authority that Dani used to toast the slavers and take her dragon back: she had the power to do it, and in this world, power equals authority, and greater power equals higher authority, and there’s no such thing as the Ex Post Facto clause. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/435 "2013-05-08T12:51:32Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > I don’t think Gendry will die. In the book they just use Edric’s blood, right? They don’t kill him, they just use leeches to collect his blood and curse the three kings still living. Melisandre wanted to do more with him (use his blood to waken the stone dragon, I think) but the Onion Knight helped him escape. Didn’t she make the last Shadow using Stannis’s semen, not his blood. > [@JSexton](#): > > Isn’t Theon in the basement of the Dreadfort, bolton’s place? If so, we just saw Jaime and Brienne there, which explains why it’s in the credits. All I can say is Brienne in a pretty pink dress; funny as hell. 😉 Even funnier than Jaime in a pretty pink dress. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/436 "2013-05-08T12:54:42Z")
Right, Bricker, but you’re talking about these things forming the legal basis for Arya’s right or authority to kill Dareon. I’m talking about these things as the basis for judging the kind of person Arya is. Not everyone in Westeros would feel comfortable to kill deserters. Indeed, there would be a lot of people (in a pre-war Westeros who aren’t all suffering the effects of severe trauma, perhaps) who would not find it in themselves to follow someone down an alley and slit his throat. The point is that Arya is very comfortable doing that. She’s a cold, cold killer. That’s not even something you could necessarily say about Ned, who certainly by the time of his death had killed a lot of people by his own hand. And it’s not even something you could say about Theon, who, despite having ordered or carried out multiple reprehensible killings, is never entirely comfortable with what he’s done. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/437 "2013-05-08T13:15:25Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > In the book Littlefinger has Jon Aryn killed. He probably has Ned Stark killed. He abducts Jeyne Poole into a sex slave academy and sells her to a guy that flays people. Littlefinger is absolutely fucking evil in the books. > [@Acsenray](#): > > And he’s trying to make sure that Sansa ends up as his lover, as a substitute for Catelyn. And pushed his doting new wife Lysa Arryn to her death, with his statement that he never loved her the last words she ever heard. But Littlefinger is charmingly devious. I have to admit I have a soft spot for him. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/438 "2013-05-08T13:31:03Z")
Roz betrayed Littlefinger and fed info on his plans to Varys, that was an death sentence the second she agreed to help Varys. While the manner of her death was pretty unpleasant even Ned would have executed someone he caught spying and feeding info to the Lannisters. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/439 "2013-05-08T13:38:54Z")
Just to nitpick a bit here: It is Ro **s** and not Ro **z**. ([Game of Thrones Wiki](http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Ros), [IMDB](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2657974/). ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/440 "2013-05-08T13:56:03Z")
> [@martu](#): > > Anyone any idea why they changed Stannis from being the commander that ‘leads’ from the back to one that leads from the front? I am rereading again at the moment and it is mentioned a few times by various people. In addition to the cooler/looks better reason articulated by **Mogle** , I would also imagine it is to show that Stannis is a good military leader. “Leading from the back” is considered cowardly to us (though it makes perfect sense for a general or King not to be in the vanguard), and the show doesn’t have the luxury, as the book did, of showing us Stannis’s military prowess by detailing his past victories. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362.md?page=23)