# Game of Thrones S3 - open spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 30, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362 "2013-03-30T16:23:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/81 "2013-04-04T18:07:38Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > In a long term view, yes. But I think the point was that to some it appears Varys is like a Maester in that he tries to do the best thing depending on whoever occupies the Iron Throne… not plotting to make things worse so a better ruler can come to the Throne. > > And then again, Varys kind of had no idea the Baratheon/Lannisters would have been this bad when he started his planning. Yeah, that was pretty much my point. In season one/book one you know that Varys is working with Illyrio. So you know he’s actually working to destabilize the realm. The thousands of people killed in the civil war/or would have been killed had the Dothraki invaded probably take little consolation in Varys’s long term views. Besides, anyone who’s not actively working to put Stannis on the throne isn’t really serving the realm. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/82 "2013-04-04T18:09:11Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I’m only partway through book 4, but it seems to me that up to this point, even the books don’t offer a whole lot of fodder to wonder too much about Varys and his motives. He’s portrayed as dubious and duplicitous and slimy, sure, but there aren’t a whole lot of specifics regarding what his big-picture viewpoint might be, other than self-preservation. Read book 5. That’s all I’m going to say, don’t want to spoil you. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/83 "2013-04-05T06:16:04Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > So I actually hope the TV series starts diverging from the books substantially, if it means picking up the pace of the main plot threads. Yeah I have been saying that for a long time. I have been impressed with most of the changes HBO has made so far and I have no doubt that the HBO writers would do a better job of moving the story ahead than Martin in Books 4 and 5. In particular they have to bring Dany and the dragons to Westeros far more quickly than the books. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/84 "2013-04-05T10:44:30Z")
My theory about Varys and Illyrio is that they’re interested in the big picture - and by big picture I don’t mean who rules Westeros, I mean the war between Ice and Fire. They brought the dragons back not because they want to use then to take Kings Landing; they want to use them to defeat the Others. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/85 "2013-04-05T13:02:11Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > My theory about Varys and Illyrio is that they’re interested in the big picture - and by big picture I don’t mean who rules Westeros, I mean the war between Ice and Fire. They brought the dragons back not because they want to use then to take Kings Landing; they want to use them to defeat the Others. Any reason to believe they know about or believe in the Others? They didn’t bring the dragons back. They also severely weakened the Seven Kingdoms’ defenses against the Others by helping along a war that’s killing a large portion of the fighting men and destroying crops before winter. I don’t see it. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/86 "2013-04-05T13:18:03Z")
They \*did \*bring the dragons back - at least, it was Illyrio who gave Dany the dragon eggs. And Varys is a sorcerer of some sort, which implies that he know that she could somehow bring them to life. Besides, my assumption is that anyone who can actually perform magic in thar world knows a lot more than everyone else about what’s really going on. I have no real proof beyond that, and you’re right about them weakening the kingdom (although maybe it’s because they know that the Others cannot be defeated by conventional means, so maintaining a strong military force is hardly relevant). It’s just a WAG. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/87 "2013-04-05T13:25:20Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > They \*did \*bring the dragons back - at least, it was Illyrio who gave Dany the dragon eggs. And Varys is a sorcerer of some sort, which implies that he know that she could somehow bring them to life. Besides, my assumption is that anyone who can actually perform magic in thar world knows a lot more than everyone else about what’s really going on. > > I have no real proof beyond that, and you’re right about them weakening the kingdom (although maybe it’s because they know that the Others cannot be defeated by conventional means, so maintaining a strong military force is hardly relevant). It’s just a WAG. Varys is a sorcerer? Giving Dany some eggs is miles away from bringing back dragons. More than miles. Lets say they know how to bring the dragons back. Don’t you think “send a 13 year old girl and her retarded brother out into the plains with a giant murder family; hope that her husband dies; and hope that the girl seeks revenge by burning Khal Drogo, his horse, and a woman in a pyre with the eggs nestled between them” sounds like a likely plan? They can be defeated by conventional means too. That’s not even speculation, we saw Sam kill one. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/88 "2013-04-05T13:36:55Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Varys is a sorcerer? Absolutely. Illyrio called him a magician in the first book, and in the last, we saw his horde of zombie child killers. Plus, he was castrated by a wizard of some sort, which is a good hint as to his past. > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Giving Dany some eggs is miles away from bringing back dragons. More than miles. > > Lets say they know how to bring the dragons back. Don’t you think “send a 13 year old girl and her retarded brother out into the plains with a giant murder family; hope that her husband dies; and hope that the girl seeks revenge by burning Khal Drogo, his horse, and a woman in a pyre with the eggs nestled between them” sounds like a likely plan? Then why else did they give the eggs to the one person who could bring them to life - the person spoken of in the prophecy? I admit, my hypothesis lacks a certain amount of data. That doesn’t mean it’s not plausible. > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > They can be defeated by conventional means too. That’s not even speculation, we saw Sam kill one. The White Walkers are just a manifestation of an elemental force. They may be defeated with obsidian daggers; it likely cannot. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/89 "2013-04-05T13:39:11Z")
Perhaps their original plan was for Khal Drogo to help put Dany on the throne. I’m sure they weren’t banking on him being killed. Maybe they just gave her the eggs and trusted that the prophecy would pan out. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/90 "2013-04-05T13:52:23Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Absolutely. Illyrio called him a magician in the first book, and in the last, we saw his horde of zombie child killers. Plus, he was castrated by a wizard of some sort, which is a good hint as to his past. Illyrio wasn’t being literal. If I say Tiger woods is a magician with the putter, that doesn’t mean I think he can cast fireballs. Why do you think the little birds are zombies? I’m not sure how having met a wizard at some point points to Varys being a wizard himself. > [@](#): > > Then why else did they give the eggs to the one person who could bring them to life - the person spoken of in the prophecy? I admit, my hypothesis lacks a certain amount of data. That doesn’t mean it’s not plausible. You’re assuming they both know that dragons can be brought back and that they know Dany can do it. I don’t think either are true. Illyrio is really really really rich. Giving away something that has familial ties to Dany as a wedding gift, even though they might be expensive, isn’t outlandish. Hell, Euron threw a dragon egg in the ocean. Getting rid of a couple isn’t that big of a deal. > [@](#): > > The White Walkers are just a manifestation of an elemental force. They may be defeated with obsidian daggers; it likely cannot. Azor Ahai didn’t defeat the Others with dragons. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/91 "2013-04-05T14:12:02Z")
Is anyone else jonesing for the next episode? Sunday can’t get here quickly enough. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/92 "2013-04-05T14:44:32Z")
Yllirio and i guess Varys’ plan did not involve Dany being anything other than a blow up doll for Drogo to get Viserys an army. And those children weren’t zombies or in any way magic related, Varys has asked several times for children without tongues who knew how to write and were small enough to crawl around the hidden tunnels in King’s Landing, that’s how he knows everything. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/93 "2013-04-05T15:10:56Z")
You know, I don’t think Illyrio thought that Dany could actually hatch the dragons from the eggs. They were just intended to be a very expensive gift, befitting a Targaryen princess. If they were to hatch dragons, why not give them to Viserys, who was obviously the first choice for Illyrio and Varys? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/94 "2013-04-05T15:16:58Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > You know, I don’t think Illyrio thought that Dany could actually hatch the dragons from the eggs. They were just intended to be a very expensive gift, befitting a Targaryen princess. > > If they were to hatch dragons, why not give them to Viserys, who was obviously the first choice for Illyrio and Varys? Well, I actually think their first choice is (fake) Aegon. I imagine that Varys and Illyrio both thought that Viserys (at the least) would die with the Dothraki. They knew who he was and who Drogo was, that death was inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/95 "2013-04-05T15:44:06Z")
Then why plan to marry Viserys to ugh… that Dorne girl who’s name escapes me at the moment. Viserys was always plan a, an actual comfirmable Targaryen prince. Aegon is a more iffy proposition. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/96 "2013-04-05T15:48:13Z")
Arianne, IIRC. And I think the Varys and Illyrio aren’t stupid. They had a Plan A and a Plan B. They had to know that selling Aegon being alive would be difficult (it still is, but they have no choice, as they don’t really control anything with Dany). ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/97 "2013-04-05T16:08:52Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Then why plan to marry Viserys to ugh… that Dorne girl who’s name escapes me at the moment. Viserys was always plan a, an actual comfirmable Targaryen prince. Aegon is a more iffy proposition. Wasn’t that a plan between Doran Martell and Willem Dary? I’ve only read AFFC and ADWD once, but I don’t recall Varys or Illyrio being in on that. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/98 "2013-04-05T16:18:07Z")
Nope, the plan was for Arianne to sneak off and go meet Viserys while he stayed with Illyrio. Viserys chose to go with Drogo instead over the objections of Illyrio and ruined their plans by getting crowned. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/99 "2013-04-05T18:28:23Z")
Illyrio didn’t think the dragon eggs could be hatched. I forget who, but one character literally says “Illyrio would have never just given away the eggs if he thought there was any possibility they might hatch.” Dragon eggs are rare but Dany’s were hardly the only three in the world. Previous Targs unsuccessfully tried to hatch petrified dragon eggs, and as noted above Euron Greyjoy had one that he threw into the sea (or gave to the Faceless Men as payment for assassinating his brother). Varys claims to despise magic, and he’s never displayed any magical abilities. His “little birds” aren’t zombies, they’re just children in Varys’s employ who spy and murder for him. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362/100 "2013-04-05T21:07:17Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > In a long term view, yes. But I think the point was that to some it appears Varys is like a Maester in that he tries to do the best thing depending on whoever occupies the Iron Throne… not plotting to make things worse so a better ruler can come to the Throne. Varys has explicitly said that he serves the realm, and not any individual king that might be temporarily ruling it. > [@](#): > > And then again, Varys kind of had no idea the Baratheon/Lannisters would have been this bad when he started his planning. I think Varys knew the Lannisters were brutal and power hungry, that King Baratheon was a hopeless womanizing drunk, and that the realm was spinning out of control. Baratheon had nearly bankrupted the kingdom with wild excess and refusal to pay attention to the proper running of the place, and Cersei was scheming to replace him with her repugnant vicious child. That’s why he helped put into place a plan to bring back the Targaryans. When Ned Stark entered the picture, I think Varys originally saw him as a potential saviour and actually wanted to help him. But once Ned was captured, Varys abandoned him because he was of no more use to the realm and went back to his original schemes. I think he also helped Tyrion for the same reason - he saw him as the only Lannister worthy of the realm. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-s3-open-spoilers/654362.md?page=6)