# Game of Thrones Season 4: \[Fully And Openly Spoiled - See Sticky\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 2, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175 "2014-04-02T16:18:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/221 "2014-04-17T13:24:49Z")
> [@chinchalinchin](#): > > Edit: I think the TV series has pretty much confirmed that. They have given a lot of screentime to Baelish and Sansa. They’ve clearly established he has some weird perverse longing for Sansa, in my mind. [Something like that](http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m92n8fu7Gc1ry5xmko1_500.gif). (it’s chink, btw. Means a small crack or dent) ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/222 "2014-04-17T13:51:30Z")
Part of the problem is that Martin nests important plot points in the middle of a 1,000 word description of the food or what someone was wearing. Some of the unsullied think that Sansa is being whisked off to reunite with Arya. A guy at work thinks Dany will show up at the end of this season with her army and dragons to reclaim the crown, it’s adorable. They don’t realize that there are a few thousand pages of the equivalent of fantasy CSPAN to wade through. ---
**Author:** ![Mogle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mogle/32/12021_2.png) [@Mogle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mogle)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/223 "2014-04-17T14:05:45Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > [Something like that](http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m92n8fu7Gc1ry5xmko1_500.gif). I found that…disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/224 "2014-04-17T14:27:15Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > … a few thousand pages of the equivalent of fantasy CSPAN … I hope this description is original with you, because it’s spot-on _perfect_, and I intend to use it regularly. I’d much rather attribute it to “my close personal friend **madmonk28** , whom I’ve never met, came up with that” rather than “my close personal friend **madmonk28** , whom I’ve never met, repeated that on a messageboard we both frequent, although it’s not original with him and I’m not sure where it came from.” ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/225 "2014-04-17T14:33:39Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > I hope this description is original with you, because it’s spot-on _perfect_, and I intend to use it regularly. I’d much rather attribute it to “my close personal friend **madmonk28** , whom I’ve never met, came up with that” rather than “my close personal friend **madmonk28** , whom I’ve never met, repeated that on a messageboard we both frequent, although it’s not original with him and I’m not sure where it came from.” I’m going to use it, too. Except I’ll say I came up with it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/226 "2014-04-17T14:34:14Z")
I don’t think you have to be 100 percent selfish to be considered evil. I think Littlefinger is selfish enough to pass the threshold. In any case, I also believe that his concern for Sansa is more selfish than not. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/227 "2014-04-17T15:10:13Z")
It is indeed mine, or if I’ve stolen it, I’ve repeated it enough times that I think it’s mine. When you refer to me, could say, “my good friend, the eminent poster Madmonk28?” I’ve never been called eminent before. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/228 "2014-04-17T15:29:26Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I don’t think you have to be 100 percent selfish to be considered evil. I think Littlefinger is selfish enough to pass the threshold. > > In any case, I also believe that his concern for Sansa is more selfish than not. He doesn’t just barely fall on the evil side, he waltzes right into it. There’s no redeeming him for the fate of Jeyne Poole. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/229 "2014-04-17T15:30:32Z")
Yes. Among others. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/230 "2014-04-17T18:16:12Z")
I’ve been re-reading _Dragons_ and am noticing a difference in GRRM’s writing. The sympathetic female characters are written much better than the unsympathetic ones – Cersei, Lysa, Shae. Book Cersei is especially vapid and one-dimensional. Her dialogue is trite, soap opera stuff. It’s a testament to the show’s writers and Lena Heady’s acting that the character is even mildly interesting. Show Cersei is smart; book Cersei is dumb and short-sighted. Same with Shae, and Lysa – the scene where she arrives at Littlefinger’s place is almost a parody of a silly, horny woman. If there were a Real Housewives of Westeros, she’d fit right in. But Sansa, Catelyn, Brienne, Arya, Margaery, Lady Olenna, even Melissandre – way different in Martin’s treatment of them. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/231 "2014-04-17T19:28:49Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > I’ve been re-reading _Dragons_ and am noticing a difference in GRRM’s writing. The sympathetic female characters are written much better than the unsympathetic ones – Cersei, Lysa, Shae. > > Book Cersei is especially vapid and one-dimensional. Her dialogue is trite, soap opera stuff. It’s a testament to the show’s writers and Lena Heady’s acting that the character is even mildly interesting. Show Cersei is smart; book Cersei is dumb and short-sighted. > > Same with Shae, and Lysa – the scene where she arrives at Littlefinger’s place is almost a parody of a silly, horny woman. If there were a Real Housewives of Westeros, she’d fit right in. > > But Sansa, Catelyn, Brienne, Arya, Margaery, Lady Olenna, even Melissandre – way different in Martin’s treatment of them. Eh. The only (male) fantasy writer I know who can write female characters worth a damn is David Eddings, and I strongly suspect he either writes about his wife, or more likely lets his wife write herself in directly. Which would explain why he only has 2 female characters ever, repeated ad nauseam. Fair’s fair : he also only has like 4 male characters. But all 6 are decent, so, whatever. It works in small doses :). ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/232 "2014-04-17T20:08:02Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > The sympathetic female characters are written much better than the unsympathetic ones – Cersei, Lysa, Shae. > > Book Cersei is especially vapid and one-dimensional. Her dialogue is trite, soap opera stuff. It’s a testament to the show’s writers and Lena Heady’s acting that the character is even mildly interesting. Show Cersei is smart; book Cersei is dumb and short-sighted. > > But Sansa, Catelyn, Brienne, Arya, Margaery, Lady Olenna, even Melissandre – way different in Martin’s treatment of them. Completely agree, with the only caveat being that I don’t think show Cersei is all that smart, either. _Clever_ in some ways, but not very smart. Tywin pretty much nailed it when he said [she is not as smart as she thinks she is.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdaBRKswKhQ) ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/233 "2014-04-21T02:12:33Z")
Uh… Jaime raping Cersei? What the hell? Or do I completely misremember that scene? ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/234 "2014-04-21T02:39:36Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Uh… Jaime raping Cersei? What the hell? Or do I completely misremember that scene? You’re not wrong. The way I remember it, Cersei was the insistent one. And wasn’t she menstruating and Jaime hesitated? It’ll be interesting to see if the changes turn out to be significant – Cersei being reluctant and Jaime being at the wedding. I’m not remembering Oberyn being a judge – just that he was Tyrion’s champion and The Mountain killed him. It’d be nice if Oberyn could hang around – even be on the small council – but that’s too big a change, probably. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/235 "2014-04-21T02:43:44Z")
Uh, he was a judge and he was in the small council. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/236 "2014-04-21T02:44:04Z")
I think if you read the Jaime/Cersei sex in the sept scene again, and consider that it was from Jaime’s point-of-view, it might seem a bit less consensual. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/237 "2014-04-21T02:57:14Z")
> [@](#): > > There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons…” > > “The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, her her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of the gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon’s blood was on her, but it made no difference. > > “Hurry,” she was whispering now, "quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime. Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Seems like she was worried about the risk and then was overtaken by lust. Later she tries to fuck him in his kingsguard chambers. It seems unlikely she would do that if he straight up raped her like in the show. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/238 "2014-04-21T04:50:38Z")
For what it’s worth, I’d been wondering how they’d film that scene, which in my memory was Jaime raping Cersei practically on top of their dead son, and yes, she had her period. It may have been a “this is NOT the right time” sort of no, but it was still a clear “no,” as I recollect and as presented in the show. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/239 "2014-04-21T09:07:51Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Seems like she was worried about the risk and then was overtaken by lust. Later she tries to fuck him in his kingsguard chambers. It seems unlikely she would do that if he straight up raped her like in the show. From Jaime’s point-of-view, perhaps. We shall see. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/240 "2014-04-21T09:41:07Z")
[A short piece about the scene](http://theweek.com/article/index/260173/the-sexual-politics-of-game-of-thrones-just-got-enormously-worse). I must agree with the author: the change is both terrible and baffling. And it IS a clear change. Not to excuse the former, but there’s a big difference between “_No, not here, yesyesyes_” and simple violent rape, which was all that was presented to viewers. I have no idea what the producers were thinking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175.md?page=13)