# Game of Thrones Season 4: \[Fully And Openly Spoiled - See Sticky\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 2, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175 "2014-04-02T16:18:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/301 "2014-04-28T20:26:28Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Jon Snow may know nothing, but he strongly suspects that Bran’s at Craster’s. What would make you think that Jon Snow has a clue where Bran is? As far as Jon knows, he got killed by Theon Greyjoy at Winterfell. The only people who know that Theon faked their deaths are Ramsay Snow, Roose Bolton and Theon/Reek. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/302 "2014-04-28T20:27:31Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > I couldn’t be more confused, probably because I’ve been re-reading, and re-reading out of order. > > Why hasn’t Sam told Jon that he ran into Bran? I know he promised Bran not to tell, but that’s a promise he needs to break. He broke it on the TV show but not in the books, I don’t think. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/303 "2014-04-28T20:27:38Z")
> [@bump](#): > > What would make you think that Jon Snow has a clue where Bran is? As far as Jon knows, he got killed by Theon Greyjoy at Winterfell. The only people who know that Theon faked their deaths are Ramsay Snow, Roose Bolton and Theon/Reek. Because they just talked about it this episode? ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/304 "2014-04-28T20:34:29Z")
> [@bump](#): > > What would make you think that Jon Snow has a clue where Bran is? As far as Jon knows, he got killed by Theon Greyjoy at Winterfell. The only people who know that Theon faked their deaths are Ramsay Snow, Roose Bolton and Theon/Reek. In the books, yes. Last episode of the show, though, Sam told Jon that he’d seen Bran, and that went over the maps trying to figure out where he could be, and decided that since the Wilding villages were largely empty, he’s most likely at Craster’s. I wonder if Coldhands will shop up at Craster’s before Jon gets there? Having Jon and Bran reunite would be a pretty huge change. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/305 "2014-04-28T20:47:41Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > I’m torn. With the changes they’ve made, it’s hard for those scenes to play out as powerfully as they did in the books. Shae’s heel turn is more believable in the show and if Tyrion still killls her, it’s less understandable from our perspective. Absolutely. At this point, even if Shae testifies against him and winds up in Tywin’s bed, Tyrion would likely just feel guilt that he drove her away and to such extremes. The way they’ve played it so far, I think this is where they are going: Tywin is going to demand that Tyrion confess, and present Shae and promise to let her go free if Tyrion does. So Tyrion confesses, then Tywin kills her in front of him anyway. And that provokes both Jamie to release Tyrion, and Tyrion to kill Tywin. If it goes that way, it keeps Tyrion totally in character, and Tywin and Shae still meet the same end so the plot can continue. This would eliminate the trial by combat, but it’s hard to see how that plot line could continue with Oberyn being one of the judges. > [@](#): > > Tyrion’s already denied killing Joffrey to Jaime, so their conversation where Tyrion lies and says that he kill Joff doesn’t make sense. Cersei hasn’t been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy, so that line is out in the window. We’ve barely seen the Hand necklace, so the significance there is lost. We haven’t heard about Tysha in forever (and that story played out differently as well, removing a lot of Tyrion’s culpabiity and guilt), so there’s very little emotion in the revelation that she wasn’t a whore. For that matter, Oberyn has already been promised the Mountain, so where is his motivation for championing Tyrion? Agreed. A lot of the plot lines that come next in the book seem to be messed up. But I’m totally okay with all these changes, as well as the ones at the wall. We’re at the point right now where the books simply got tedious from my perspective. After Tyrion’s escape it seemed like we went thousands of pages of palace intrigue and economic management of slave societies, with little point to any of it. If the writers condense that down or eliminate much of it, I’ll be completely fine with that. After all we still have 2 more books to get through after SoS, plus the two more than GRRM is said to be writing. If they keep to their current pace and don’t eliminate or condense a bunch of plotlines, we’ll be talking about what, 6 or 7 more seasons? What are the odds that the show will even continue that long? I’d rather see them wrap up the existing books much sooner, then get on with telling a story none of us have heard. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/306 "2014-04-28T20:49:30Z")
Oberyn was one of the judges in the book too and the trial by combat was in all the previews. And it would be a horrible mistake to remove such an awesome scene. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/307 "2014-04-28T21:48:28Z")
And Cersei was banging Lancel on the TV show. He was the dim-witted wine stewart waaaaaay back in season one. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/308 "2014-04-28T21:58:11Z")
I don’t see why everyone thinks it’s so out of character for Shae to end up in Tywin’s bed. We have seen her act very very convincingly in love with Tyrion, but it’s entirely possible that either: (a) that act was just an act the whole time, and she’s just very very good at being a prostitute and playing the long con (possibly actually under Tywin’s orders the entire time) or (b) she did truly love him. Then he forced her away. And she was sad for a while. But then she needed a new sugar daddy, so to speak Regardless of the changes in her and Tyrion’s relationship from the book, I don’t see why either of those things is particularly implausible. (And note that it’s also just as plausible that Bronn has been actually in Tywin’s pay for some amount of time, which could explain how Shae ended up not on a boat. I honestly don’t remember to what extent any of this is spelled out in the books, I haven’t read that part in a while.) ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/309 "2014-04-28T22:04:16Z")
Shae could also end up in bed with Tywin in an attempt to save Tyrion. “Sleep with me and I’ll let him take the Black.” Or even without the invitation, she might think that she can manipulate Tywin that way. Thanks to everyone who remembered that Locke is Bolton’s man. Here I was thinking “Cool! Jon has someone on his side!” The knife the Thing used on the baby – it is dragonglass? A touch turns you into a Walker but piercing kills? ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/310 "2014-04-28T22:04:24Z")
Ya know, with this episode departing so much from the book, I would not be surprised of Shae stays gone. We’ll have to see how the trial plays out. However, if she mocks him like she did in the book and ends up in Tywin’s bed after, I don’t see why it would be so out of character for Tyrion to kill her. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/311 "2014-04-28T22:05:28Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Shae could also end up in bed with Tywin in an attempt to save Tyrion. “Sleep with me and I’ll let him take the Black.” Or even without the invitation, she might think that she can manipulate Tywin that way. > > Thanks to everyone who remembered that Locke is Bolton’s man. Here I was thinking “Cool! Jon has someone on his side!” > > The knife the Thing used on the baby – it is dragonglass? A touch turns you into a Walker but piercing kills? That was a knife? I thought it was a fingernail. One besieged by fungus, but a fingernail nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/312 "2014-04-28T22:06:09Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I don’t see why everyone thinks it’s so out of character for Shae to end up in Tywin’s bed. We have seen her act very very convincingly in love with Tyrion, but it’s entirely possible that either: > (a) that act was just an act the whole time, and she’s just very very good at being a prostitute and playing the long con (possibly actually under Tywin’s orders the entire time) > or > (b) she did truly love him. Then he forced her away. And she was sad for a while. But then she needed a new sugar daddy, so to speak I don’t disagree with any of that. The problem I have is that in the books, her betrayal of Tyrion was so cruel that we could understand him killing her. She seemed almost gleeful in pointing out the whole “giant of lannister” nickname, and she told massive lies about him during his trial. In the show, how will it play out? From the way it looks now, it seems like she will have been intercepted from the ship and forced to testify against him. And if that’s indeed how it happens, then his decision to kill her is a lot less justified to our eyes, and it makes Tyrion into a less sympathetic character. I hope I’m wrong, and the writers can still hit the right notes. A lot of the changes they’ve made for the show have worked really well on screen, but when it goes wrong it really sours the show. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/313 "2014-04-28T22:57:14Z")
Yeah, I have no problem with Shae winding up in Tywin’s bed. I just don’t think it would be in Tyrion’s character (in the show) to kill her for that - not without all the events in the book between them that didn’t happen in the TV show. Not after he was the one who had to be cruel to her to get her to go away. And to be honest, I thought killing her was out of character for him even in the books. I just can’t picture a scene with Tyrion murdering Shae at this point without it totally changing who he is. Although… In the book it did change him. He was never the same after that. And he also became a much less interesting character, IMO. So I’d be okay if they rewrote his entire storyline from this point forward, although that’s unlikely. I didn’t remember that Oberyn was a judge in the books. Is that correct? I thought he was just one of the people observing the trial. ---
**Author:** ![Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambrosio_Spinola)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/314 "2014-04-28T23:06:08Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Yeah, I have no problem with Shae winding up in Tywin’s bed. I just don’t think it would be in Tyrion’s character (in the show) to kill her for that - not without all the events in the book between them that didn’t happen in the TV show. Not after he was the one who had to be cruel to her to get her to go away. And to be honest, I thought killing her was out of character for him even in the books. It also seemed massively out of character for _Tywin_ as well. Sure, he was duplicitous and possibly hypocritical, but there was absolutely nothing in the books which suggested that his dislike of prostitutes was a facade. I think the writers of the show have an opportunity to improve on the books here, although I wonder if they will try. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/315 "2014-04-28T23:09:19Z")
Yes Oberyn was a [judge in the books](http://towerofthehand.com/books/103/067/index.html), along with Tywin and Mace Tyrell. ---
**Author:** ![interface2x](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@interface2x](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/interface2x)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/316 "2014-04-28T23:22:22Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > That was a knife? I thought it was a fingernail. One besieged by fungus, but a fingernail nonetheless. Yeah, it was definitely a finger. I thought I read somewhere that the character of Coldhands was eliminated from the show, but it’s possible that I’m just remembering conjecture from other fans since he didn’t show up to usher Bran North of the wall. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/317 "2014-04-28T23:54:23Z")
> [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](#): > > It also seemed massively out of character for _Tywin_ as well. Sure, he was duplicitous and possibly hypocritical, but there was absolutely nothing in the books which suggested that his dislike of prostitutes was a facade. I think the writers of the show have an opportunity to improve on the books here, although I wonder if they will try. Outwardly hating something you do yourself and are ashamed of makes a ton of sense. Varys also mentions that a Hand built a tunnel to a brothel. ---
**Author:** ![Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambrosio_Spinola)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/318 "2014-04-29T00:25:16Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Outwardly hating something you do yourself and are ashamed of makes a ton of sense. > > Varys also mentions that a Hand built a tunnel to a brothel. Maybe, but would he really be into sleeping with a whore that had been with Tyrion, even if he was into negotiable affection? It just seemed totally out of left field. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/319 "2014-04-29T00:26:37Z")
Tywin just seems more likeable on the show. I especially enjoyed his scenes with Arya way back when. Did Robb legitimized Jon on the show? I know he did in the books, but I can’t remember if that ever took place on TV. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/320 "2014-04-29T00:31:44Z")
> [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](#): > > Maybe, but would he really be into sleeping with a whore that had been with Tyrion, even if he was into negotiable affection? It just seemed totally out of left field. As a power thing? Sure. Plus she was most readily available I think. There’s also the theory that Varys planted her there so that Tyrion would kill Tywin. **HazelNutCoffee** , Jon was not legitimized in the show. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175.md?page=17)