# Game of Thrones Season 4: \[Fully And Openly Spoiled - See Sticky\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 2, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175 "2014-04-02T16:18:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/341 "2014-04-30T13:28:38Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > So, the NightsKing. > > Wonder if the show is going to start with more book spoilers. Like stating outright that Jon Snow is Lyanna and Rhaeghar’s son? Since I don’t think GRRM is ever going to finish the series, they’re going to have to start just wrapping shit up on the show. ---
**Author:** ![Moonlitherial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Moonlitherial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonlitherial)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/342 "2014-04-30T14:46:29Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > I think Tywin was more concerned with how unsubtle Tyrion was with his whoring. Even more Tywin hated the fact that Tyrion fell in love with his whores and treated them like actual people. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Could Bran warg into a dragon? Something I’ve been thinking about since reading the books. I can understand that dragons might be resistant to your typical warg, or we would have heard tales of dragons controlled by wargs. So I imagine that it’s considered unthinkable. But it’s been established that Bran is not your average warg. > > Imagine what a dragon could do if it was fully under the control of a warg. It would be like taking a jet fighter with unlimited ammunition and gas back to the middle ages. This is an awesome thought! ---
**Author:** ![Fair\_Rarity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fair_rarity/32/153_2.png) [@Fair\_Rarity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fair_Rarity)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/343 "2014-05-01T01:16:55Z")
I forgot that Stannis and Shireen are Targs too. (His grandmother was a Targ.) I can’t imagine Stannis riding a dragon, nor Shireen. And it is possible Stannis is dead too. But the whole “The dragon has three heads” thing just seems so clear to me. I’ve been wondering too how much foreshadowing was in the Dance of Dragons short story in Dangerous Women… like family member vs family member battling on dragons. Just a legendary story from Westeros past or a glimpse that will happen? If Dany has to beware the mummer’s dragon and has all these upcoming betrayals, what if she and Aegon don’t place nice? ---
**Author:** ![Fair\_Rarity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fair_rarity/32/153_2.png) [@Fair\_Rarity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fair_Rarity)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/344 "2014-05-03T01:38:50Z")
I changed my mind again. I don’t think Aegon is Rhaegar’s. I started thinking about Varys saying he serves the realm, so I started googling ideas as to what that means, knowing I couldn’t take that at face value and I went down a rabbit hole of crazy theories that I haven’t dug myself out of yet. Anyway, now I again think Aegon is fake (although _he_ might not know it and Jon C certainly doesn’t), but is a Blackfyre and/or the other one… Brightflame, I think. I came across this [reddit thread](http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/p844r/adwd_spoilers_and_speculation_septon_meribald/) that convinced me, outlined some possible foreshadowing symbolism. Then some other things to back it up [here](http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/61618-best-aegon-is-a-blackfyre-insane-evidence-ever/?p=4991976). And a great rundown of who is in line for the throne in Targ succession and why [here](http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/61618-best-aegon-is-a-blackfyre-insane-evidence-ever/?p=4353787). Basically boils down to Dany, Stannis, Shireen, any thought-dead people like Aegon, any possible legit offspring (Jon Snow), and Targ bastards who were legitimized but denied the throne (Blackfyres and co). The most interesting aspect is that the Martells are on it. I knew they married the Targs sometimes, but I didn’t know any of the marriages stayed in Dorne. I can’t tell if Doran is sitting pretty with an unscathed army and a legit claim to the throne himself or if his long-term plans are just too convoluted to work out before he kicks it and the Sandsnakes go rogue. Since D&D are kind of going all over the place, introducing new things, throwing in things from later books, I wonder what the episodes hold for us, if any of these things will come up this season when you would think that they wouldn’t. Or if these are all epileptic trees that they won’t bother to show at all. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/345 "2014-05-03T03:08:25Z")
Huh, why would anyone actually think Aegon was real? We’ve been getting prophecy after prophecy about a fake dragon since what… early book 2? and when he finally shows up people take him seriously? Illyrio would never had backed Viserys if he had Aegon. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/346 "2014-05-03T03:55:46Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Huh, why would anyone actually think Aegon was real? We’ve been getting prophecy after prophecy about a fake dragon since what… early book 2? and when he finally shows up people take him seriously? Illyrio would never had backed Viserys if he had Aegon. Aegon is likely illyrio’s son. I don’t think he was ever actually backing viserys. It would have been obvious to anyone that knows dothraki and viserys that he’d end up dead. Why not make a ton of money off the marriage anyway? ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/347 "2014-05-03T06:05:30Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Huh, why would anyone actually think Aegon was real? We’ve been getting prophecy after prophecy about a fake dragon since what… early book 2? and when he finally shows up people take him seriously? Illyrio would never had backed Viserys if he had Aegon. Mummer’s Dragon doesn’t necessarily mean fake dragon. It can mean the dragon of a mummer… in this case, Varys, who was part of a troupe of mummers in the Free Cities. And Varys tells a dying Kevan Lannister than Aegon Targaryen is alive - why lie to a dying man who will soon be put to death? ---
**Author:** ![Mogle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mogle/32/12021_2.png) [@Mogle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mogle)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/348 "2014-05-03T07:57:47Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > And Varys tells a dying Kevan Lannister than Aegon Targaryen is alive - why lie to a dying man who will soon be put to death? Strictly speaking, Varys never calls him “Aegon Targaryen”, just “Aegon”, and Kevan (quite reasonably)assumes it’s the same Aegon that was supposedly killed in the sack of King’s Landing. So Varys didn’t necessarily lie, he just didn’t correct Kevan when he misunderstood. Of course, I have a feeling we may never find out for certain since one of the main themes in ASoIaF is that power resides where people believe it does, if enough people think Aegon is real and follow him, then he is “real” regardless of who his parents actually were. ---
**Author:** ![sohvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/96bed5/32.png) [@sohvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sohvan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/349 "2014-05-03T07:58:56Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Yeah, I have no problem with Shae winding up in Tywin’s bed. I just don’t think it would be in Tyrion’s character (in the show) to kill her for that - not without all the events in the book between them that didn’t happen in the TV show. Not after he was the one who had to be cruel to her to get her to go away. And to be honest, I thought killing her was out of character for him even in the books. > > I just can’t picture a scene with Tyrion murdering Shae at this point without it totally changing who he is. Although… In the book it did change him. He was never the same after that. And he also became a much less interesting character, IMO. So I’d be okay if they rewrote his entire storyline from this point forward, although that’s unlikely. I’ve been wondering if they might have Tyrion murder Bronn instead. Bronn is the one who he sent to take Shae to the ship, so he’ll be suspicious if Shae never makes it there. Suppose Bronn sells out Tyrion and Shae to Tywin, and Shae ends up dead because of it. Bronn would make a perfect travel companion to Jaime, so I think it’s unlikely for them to go that route. If they killed off Bronn, there would be no obvious choice to accompany Jaime. It would be a way to shock both book and show viewers though, and they certainly like doing that. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/350 "2014-05-03T13:46:29Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Aegon is likely illyrio’s son. I don’t think he was ever actually backing viserys. It would have been obvious to anyone that knows dothraki and viserys that he’d end up dead. Why not make a ton of money off the marriage anyway? He was setting up Viserys with what’s her face from Dorne to solidify his support, he was totally “plan a”. Which makes very little sense if a real Aegon was alive. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/351 "2014-05-03T19:02:31Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > He was setting up Viserys with what’s her face from Dorne to solidify his support, he was totally “plan a”. Which makes very little sense if a real Aegon was alive. The Martells signed the pact with Willem Darry, not Varys or Illyrio. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/352 "2014-05-03T19:32:04Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > The Martells signed the pact with Willem Darry, not Varys or Illyrio. The plan was to sneak whats her face to see Viserys after they sold off Dany, and got ruined when Viserys decided to tag along and ended up getting crowned. Willem Darry was long gone by that point. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/353 "2014-05-03T20:21:44Z")
Right. The pact was signed before Viserys and Arianne Martell were of age so they had to wait. Varys and Illyrio had no part in it. See ([http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2012/07/](http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2012/07/)) about a quarter down the page. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/354 "2014-05-05T02:54:02Z")
Getting annoyed with Cersei’s redemption arc. She seemed almost reasonable in this episode. At this point, I’ll feel bad when she does the Walk of Shame. What happened to Bran’s direwolf? They won’t leave the area without looking for him, will they? Favorite part was the stuff at the Eyrie – they stayed close to the book. Lysa’s an interesting character but lousy at playing the Game. She talks way too much. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/355 "2014-05-05T05:49:57Z")
Hodor freed summer, we just didn’t see him. We did see the empty cage and Ghost out and about, so we can assume summer and bran are reunited. ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/356 "2014-05-05T06:00:32Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Getting annoyed with Cersei’s redemption arc. She seemed almost reasonable in this episode. At this point, I’ll feel bad when she does the Walk of Shame. Yeah, I wonder how they’re going to end up squaring up Cersei’s later hatred of Margaery. In this episode she seemed eager to have her take care of Tommen. Then again, there’s lots of other things that I’m not sure how they’ll line up (Oberyn standing for Tyrion to get revenge when Tywin promised him the Mountain’s head, Jaime/Tyrion’s last conversation, Shae’s betrayal, etc). I’m not surprised that Locke didn’t last too long, in retrospect. I’m pleased with the changes to Bran’s storyline so far though. More interesting than the books by far. I wonder if they’ll manage to do the same with Brienne. The preview for next episode looked interesting - apparently a showdown between Asha (Yara) Greyjoy and Ramsay Snow, which is completely invented from the books. IIRC she doesn’t show up at all in ASoS and spends all of AFFC on the Islands trying to become king. And Stannis is getting his scene with the Iron Bank moved up from ADWD (!) before he even heads up to the Wall. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/357 "2014-05-05T13:24:13Z")
I assumed that Cersei’s behavior is part of a gambit; I think that she is hoping to play nice so that she will get what she wants: Tyrion’s head on a spike. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/358 "2014-05-05T15:34:08Z")
Remind me how Littlefinger will still have control over Sansa if he marries her off to Harold Hardyng (sp)? And would he kill - or have killed - Robin the boy-prince, or does he need him alive? Here’s the NYT on the topic if “Too much rape in GoT?”: [For ‘Game of Thrones,’ Rising Unease Over Rape’s Recurring Role - The New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/03/arts/television/for-game-of-thrones-rising-unease-over-rapes-recurring-role.html?action=click&contentCollection=Television®ion=Footer&module=MoreInSection&pgtype=article&_r=0) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/359 "2014-05-05T15:54:14Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I assumed that Cersei’s behavior is part of a gambit; I think that she is hoping to play nice so that she will get what she wants: Tyrion’s head on a spike. Cercei is a murderous snake, but when she’s calm and collected she’s capable of scheming with the best of them. She’s just not that calm and collected most of the time and makes rash errors. In this case, she’s smart enough to know that the Tyrells are a force to be reckoned with, and that a marriage to Tommen is inevitable. In that case, the smart play is for her to get as close to Margaery as possible, and bide her time until there’s an opportunity for her to make whatever murderous, snaky move will get her family away from the Tyrells. Did that little dialog between Lysa and Littlefinger where they revealed he was behind the murder of Jon Arryn actually happen in the books? I don’t recall it. I don’t recall LittleFinger’s role in any of the murders being this explicit - I thought we were left to just figure it out based on his behavior. Did I forget a passage from the book? So far, I’ve liked all the changes from the books. Taking Bran’s journey through Craster’s keep cut that storyline WAY down in size, which is a good thing. I thought the scenes with Podrick on the horse and cooking the rabbit were over the top and closer to slapstick than they needed to be. And it strains credulity that anyone living in that era would think you cooked game with the fur still on. That would like someone today not understanding that a car needs fuel. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/360 "2014-05-05T16:20:03Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Did that little dialog between Lysa and Littlefinger where they revealed he was behind the murder of Jon Arryn actually happen in the books? I don’t recall it. I don’t recall LittleFinger’s role in any of the murders being this explicit - I thought we were left to just figure it out based on his behavior. Did I forget a passage from the book? I don’t remember it from the book either, so it came as a shock to me as well. But the whole “kill Joffrey using the necklace with poison” was only a speculation based upon how it was presented in the book. But in the show it made absolutely sure you understood exactly what happened. I imagine the same thing happened here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175.md?page=19)