# Game of Thrones Season 4: \[Fully And Openly Spoiled - See Sticky\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 2, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175 "2014-04-02T16:18:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![sohvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/96bed5/32.png) [@sohvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sohvan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/21 "2014-04-02T22:57:06Z")
> [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > That reminds me, what do you think Martin’s solution to the “Meereenese knot” is? I assumed the Meereenese knot problem was that all these plots are coming together in Meereen, where Dany is ruling, and what is going to be her actual motivation to head for Westeros? I think the motivation for Dany is going to be having one of her dragons stolen, and she’ll have to choose between finishing things in Meereen and going after her baby. No one said she has to succeed in Meereen after all, and I think she would choose the dragon over the city. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/22 "2014-04-02T23:07:07Z")
Her motivation for not heading to westeros when she had the chance was not having enough ships to carry all her people. Someone is currently on the way to mereen with enough ships to carry them. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/23 "2014-04-03T01:31:56Z")
> [@chinchalinchin](#): > > Example: When Brienne arrives at Quiet Isle and meets all the monks, if you blink, you might miss that one of the monks bears a striking resemblance to Sandor Clegane. It’s never explicitly stated, but if you infer from the details we know about the Hound’s unruly horse, the wounds he has sustained and his height, then the only conclusion is Clegana survived his final encounter with Arya and is currently seeking some form of redemption for his acts. > > There’s tons of moments of subtle plot development like this in the books, but it’s not obvious since it’s not a visual medium. I’m going to have to go back and read this section again. Love this speculation. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/24 "2014-04-03T01:43:33Z")
Does anyone have any idea just how violent and/or gruesome Joff’s death will likely be? Personally, I would love to see him get what he deserves in a very violent way. I have a feeling that if it was very violent, it would be a scene that I would love to watch over and over again. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/25 "2014-04-03T02:21:36Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > Does anyone have any idea just how violent and/or gruesome Joff’s death will likely be? > > Personally, I would love to see him get what he deserves in a very violent way. I have a feeling that if it was very violent, it would be a scene that I would love to watch over and over again. Hes poisoned. Not violent at all. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/26 "2014-04-03T02:58:02Z")
> [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > That reminds me, what do you think Martin’s solution to the “Meereenese knot” is? I assumed the Meereenese knot problem was that all these plots are coming together in Meereen, where Dany is ruling, and what is going to be her actual motivation to head for Westeros? The Meereenese Knot (referring, of course, to a contortion by Meereen prostitutes) was the problem GRRM ran into when writing Books 4 and 5 with the complexity of the plot and all these stories coming together in Meereen. > **[Meereenese Knot](https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Meereenese_Knot)** > > The Meereenese Knot\[1\] is a difficult-to-perform act of contortion or sexual gymnastics, named after the city of Meereen in Slaver's Bay. Kayla, a prostitute in King's Landing, is one of only four women in the known world who are able to perform a... > [@](#): > > However, the primary reason Martin gave for why writing on the combined Feast/Dance novels took so long is because of what he called the “Meereenese knot”. Likening it to the puzzle of a Gordian knot, Martin explained that he’d reached the midpoint of the story, when all of the characters who were together in the first novel, who subsequently became scattered across the world, were starting to be drawn back together by events and interacting again. Certain major characters who had never had scenes together were also starting to meet for the first time as major storylines became reshuffled and started crossing with each other. > > Thus the “Meereenese Knot” was his struggle with how to properly re-integrate all of these major characters, some of whom had never even met before, and how they would interact with each other. Just as Alexander the Great solved the issue of the Gordian Knot by cleaving it in two, Martin solved the problem by separating the story into two volumes, hence why A Feast for Crows and A Dance With Dragons deal with concurrent events. Basically the Meereenese Knot has been taken care of - its the reason it took GRRM to write the last two books because he had to make sure everyone who had to go to Meereen hit it at the right time (also why Tyrion’s and Dany’s chapters are so excruciating at times). I think he knows how Tyrion and Victarion will interact in relation to Dany returning to Westeros. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/27 "2014-04-03T03:40:41Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Hes poisoned. Not violent at all. Perhaps I used the wrong word. Some poisons cause an extremely painful reaction with a great deal of thrashing and apparent writhing whereas others kill and to the eye of the observer, they do not seem to cause a lot of pain and suffering. I found an interesting site called, “10 Poisons And Their Horrifying Effects”. > **[10 Poisons And Their Horrifying Effects - Listverse](https://listverse.com/2013/04/03/10-poisons-and-their-horrifying-effects/)** > > We tend to think of poison as a Shakespearean agent of drama, torn from the pages of Agatha Christie novels. But the truth is, death is all around us, in The most cruel poison seems to be Strychnine and here’s why: Death caused by strychnine is agonizing; a neurotoxin, it attacks the nerves of the spine, causing the body to contort and spasm as the muscles are contracted against their will. It should prove interesting to see just what poison the killer selects to kill Joff and also the effects of the poison should also be interesting. Here are 8 poisons and their effects (found on the site) Batrachotoxin Lucky for most of us, the chances for coming in contact with batrachotoxin are exceedingly slim. One of the most powerful neurotoxins in the world, it is found on the skin of the tiny poison dart frogs. The frogs themselves don’t produce the poison—it comes from the food they eat, most probably a type of tiny beetle. There are several different versions depending on the species, with by far the most dangerous found on the Golden poison frog of Colombia. This little guy is small enough to sit on your fingertip, but one frog has enough batrachotoxin on him to kill around two dozen people or a couple elephants. The toxin works by attacking the nerves, opening their sodium channels and causing paralysis, essentially shutting off the entire body’s ability to communicate with itself. There is no known antidote and death comes very quickly. Vx Nerve Gas Outlawed by the Chemical Weapons Convention of 1993 (world stockpiles are slowly dwindling), VX is believed to be the most powerful nerve gas in the world. Found quite by accident in 1952 by a chemist testing organophosphates, its danger was soon discovered. Initially marketed as a pesticide called Amiton, it was removed from sale because it was too dangerous for the public. It soon attracted the attention of the world’s governments, and, as this was a time of Cold War political unrest, was stockpiled for potential use in war. Luckily, no one flinched, and VX was never used in battle. A cultist from the Japanese group Aum Shinriyko did manage to make some, and he used it to kill a man, the only known human death attributed to VX. The agent works by inhibiting the production of an enzyme in the nerves, resulting in constant activity, a ‘storm’ in the nervous system that quickly overwhelms the body. Agent Orange Manufactured both by Dow Chemical and Monsanto (which makes everyone’s short list of the most evil corporations in the world), nearly everyone has heard of the defoliant Agent Orange. Used during the Vietnam War, both to kill the trees which provided cover for enemy soldiers, and to destroy crops in rural areas. Unfortunately, besides killing plants, the herbicide contained a chemical dioxin called TCDD, a known carcinogen which causes a vast increase in cancers for those exposed to it, particularly lymphomas. In addition, tens of thousands of Vietnamese children were either stillborn or riddled with birth defects, not limited to cleft palates, extra fingers and toes, and mental retardation. Vietnam remains terribly contaminated to this day. Ricin Derived from the castor bean, ricin is amongst the deadliest of poisons. A dose as small as a few grains of salt is enough to kill a grown man. It works by preventing the body from manufacturing the proteins it needs to survive and causing the victim to go into shock. Because of the ease of producing it, ricin has been weaponized by many of the world’s governments and was used at least once in an assassination, when Bulgarian dissident writer Georgi Markov was shot by a ricin pellet on the streets of London in 1978. It is believed that the Bulgarian secret police and/or the KGB were responsible. Arsenic The metalloid arsenic has been used for centuries for everything from forging weapons to makeup during Victorian times (when ladies valued a sickly pallor). In the dark ages, it became the poison du jour of assassins everywhere due to its action—arsenic poisoning closely resembles cholera, a common affliction at the time. It works by attacking the enzyme ATP in human cells, shutting down the transfer of energy. Arsenic is a nasty substance, and in strong concentrations it causes all manner of blood-streaked gastrointestinal distress, convulsions, coma, and death. In smaller, chronically consumed amounts (such as that found in contaminated groundwater), it is known to inspire a host of diseases not limited to cancer, heart disease, and diabetes. Lead Lead is one of the first metals mankind ever used, first smelted over 8,000 years ago. And yet it has only been in the last few decades that we have truly had any idea how dangerous it is—lead attacks every organ in the human body, and thus poisoning is manifested by a vast number of symptoms, everything ranging from diarrhea to mental retardation. Children are particularly susceptible—fetal exposure causes permanent neurological disorders. Strangely enough, many criminologists believe that the widespread drop in violent crime is at least partially due to increased lead regulation. Children born in the 1980s and afterward have had markedly less exposure to lead, and may be less prone to violence as a result. Brodifacoum Since just after World War II, the poison warfarin has been used as a rodenticide (and also, curiously, as a blood thinner for humans with clotting disorders). But rats are born survivors, and over time, many have built up a resistance to warfarin. Enter brodifacoum. A highly lethal anticoagulant, broadifacoum works by reducing the amount of Vitamin K in the blood. Since Vitamin K is needed in the clotting process, eventually the body becomes subject to massive internal hemorrhaging, blood leaking from the smallest vessels. Brodifacoum, which is sold under brand names such as Havoc, Talon, and Jaguar, must be handled carefully as it can easily permeate the skin, and remains in the system for months at a time. Strychnine Mostly derived from the seeds of the Strychnos nux-vomica tree of India and Southeast Asia, strychnine is an alkaloid substance used as a pesticide, especially on rodents. Death caused by strychnine is agonizing; a neurotoxin, it attacks the nerves of the spine, causing the body to contort and spasm as the muscles are contracted against their will. Oskar Dirlewanger, a Nazi SS commander during World War II, would inject his prisoners with the chemical and watch them convulse for his own wicked amusement. Strychnine is one of the few substances on this list that is cheap and easily commercially available, probably sold in your local hardware store as “Gopher Killer”. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/28 "2014-04-03T04:11:39Z")
In the books Joffrey is poisoned with the Strangler - the same substance Maester Cressan tried to kill Melisandre at the start of Book 2. It’s a particularly nasty way to die. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/29 "2014-04-03T08:51:05Z")
> [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > I guess we do need a little Iron Islands to at least introduce Victarion as a character? He is going to be rather important in getting Daenerys moving I expect? I don’t expect there will be a Victarion. I suspect that Asha will take over his part as candidate and fleet commander. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/30 "2014-04-03T12:31:14Z")
That would be such a huge mistake. Victarion is a GREAT character. ---
**Author:** ![chinchalinchin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b9bd4f/32.png) [@chinchalinchin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chinchalinchin)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/31 "2014-04-03T14:16:37Z")
> [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > That would be such a huge mistake. Victarion is a GREAT character. I know! I literally laughed out loud when, in book 5, him and his red priest Moquorro found a ship full of sex slaves and Victarion found the boys too effeminate, so he threw them in the ocean. Does that make me a bad person? Plus, if we don’t get Victarion, then we don’t get Euron, and Euron is hilariously evil. First of all, he has an eyepatch, which is more than enough for me. But there’s more! He delivered a monologue to his brother completely naked save a cape. He banged his brother’s wife. He forced a woman to marry a seal. He constantly drinks, what I can only assume, is some form of ayahausca or hallucinogen or something. He found a dragon egg, told a Maester to make it hatch and when it didn’t, he cut out the Maester’s tongue and threw the egg into the ocean. Dude is straight baller. ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/32 "2014-04-03T14:20:56Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Hes poisoned. Not violent at all. It was pretty violent in the book. His face and neck was described as going purple, and he was clutching and clawing at his throat as if trying to remove invisible hands that were strangling him. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/33 "2014-04-03T14:30:09Z")
And besides Asha has to be captured by Stannis on his march to Winterfell, so she can identify Theon post-Reek. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/34 "2014-04-03T15:12:00Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > And besides Asha has to be captured by Stannis on his march to Winterfell, so she can identify Theon post-Reek. Don’t you mean “Yara”? :rolleyes: Anyway… I think the show would be much poorer without Victarion and Euron Greyjoy. The chapters dealing with those two really are the ones who get across just how different the Ironborn are than the other Westerosi. Right now we’ve seen Balon hanging out in the Seastone Chair, and Theon being essentially NOT Ironborn, having spent his formative years in Winterfell. Plus, Victarion is just crazy with the full armor on the ship, and Euron is as **chinchalinchin** says, a straight baller. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/35 "2014-04-03T16:24:53Z")
> [@chinchalinchin](#): > > Plus, if we don’t get Victarion, then we don’t get Euron, and Euron is hilariously evil. . What I had in mind is that we get Euron, but he sends Asha instead of Victarion as admiral. She’s already been well established as a fleet commander, and doesn’t have much else of signicance to do otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/36 "2014-04-03T17:10:09Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > What I had in mind is that we get Euron, but he sends Asha instead of Victarion as admiral. She’s already been well established as a fleet commander, and doesn’t have much else of signicance to do otherwise. Yeah, but she’s at Deepwood Motte and captured by Stannis that whole time. Unless her adventure in the North isn’t important, and Victarion as a character isn’t important, I don’t know how they’d do that. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/37 "2014-04-03T19:36:49Z")
> [@bouv](#): > > It was pretty violent in the book. His face and neck was described as going purple, and he was clutching and clawing at his throat as if trying to remove invisible hands that were strangling him. Still significantly less violent than the Red Wedding. I’m looking forward to quick camera cut to Oleanna and the look of smug satisfaction on her face as this goes down. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/38 "2014-04-03T21:25:05Z")
I’m in the minority who actually liked the Iron Islands and Dorne storylines (except Quentyn cause he was a waste of pages). So count me in for them to be included. And I found Brienne’s quest to find Sansa in AFFC one of the best parts of the entire book series. I think the tighter story telling that the series requires will mean that the main criticism of AFFC and ADWD (too much pointless padding) will be likely to be addressed pretty well. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/39 "2014-04-05T21:32:42Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > I think the tighter story telling that the series requires will mean that the main criticism of AFFC and ADWD (too much pointless padding) will be likely to be addressed pretty well. I’m not worried about padding. I’ve been rewatching, and even the scenes that might be considered padding are interesting to watch. It all adds to the flavor, especially with production values as good as these are. Viewers who watch solely for “action” might be disappointed though. ---
**Author:** ![Reverse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@Reverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reverse)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2014, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/40 "2014-04-05T22:39:59Z")
> [@chinchalinchin](#): > > I know! I literally laughed out loud when, in book 5, him and his red priest Moquorro found a ship full of sex slaves and Victarion found the boys too effeminate, so he threw them in the ocean. Does that make me a bad person? > > Plus, if we don’t get Victarion, then we don’t get Euron, and Euron is hilariously evil. First of all, he has an eyepatch, which is more than enough for me. But there’s more! He delivered a monologue to his brother completely naked save a cape. He banged his brother’s wife. He forced a woman to marry a seal. He constantly drinks, what I can only assume, is some form of ayahausca or hallucinogen or something. He found a dragon egg, told a Maester to make it hatch and when it didn’t, he cut out the Maester’s tongue and threw the egg into the ocean. Dude is straight baller. It is speculated that rather than throwing the egg away he gave it as a payment to the Faceless Men. Having a king assassinated is expensive. Also, the shit he drinks is essence of the nightshade, the same thing the warlocks of Qarth drink. Their lips are blue, his lips are blue, and he did get capture a group of warlocks who were on their way to kill a dragon queen. Also also, Daenerys has at least one dream where her husband has blue lips. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175.md?page=3)