# Game of Thrones Season 4: \[Fully And Openly Spoiled - See Sticky\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 2, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175 "2014-04-02T16:18:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/401 "2014-05-09T18:51:40Z")
Tyrion has Bronn murder Symon Silver Tongue and he arms the clans of the Vale specifically so they can murder Arryns. He’s not uncomfortable with using violence to suit his needs. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/402 "2014-05-09T19:07:25Z")
Yeah, but that was after giving Symon a chance. He knew that more blackmail payments wouldn’t shut him up permanently, so the only option was to Sweeney Todd him. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/403 "2014-05-09T19:09:56Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Because Tyrion is not a murderer. He never has been. He’s also much more in control of himself than that. Look at the humiliation he went through in the past, and how it took it stoically. > > Killing Tywin was an intentional act, but Tywin was a monster who was willing to kill whoever got in the way. Shae was an innocent. > > Also, in the show he already feels guilt at having been so nasty to Shae in order to save her life. He hurt her deeply, and he knows it and feels bad about it. If he found her in Tywin’s bed, he’d probably just feel understanding and maybe feel bad about himself for having pushed her there. He wouldn’t be thinking, “I’m going to kill that bitch.” Depends on how she looks. If they get a shot of her smugly smiling to herself lying on her back and tracing her fingers over The Hand’s pin/chain - that’s enough right there. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/404 "2014-05-09T19:15:42Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Yeah, but that was after giving Symon a chance. He knew that more blackmail payments wouldn’t shut him up permanently, so the only option was to Sweeney Todd him. Well, that or send Shae away. Nothing was going to happen to Tyrion. He murdered to he could keep his whore around, it’s a far cry from self defense or another situation that’s morally justifiable. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/405 "2014-05-09T19:21:13Z")
I would dearly love to hear you all tell us what you think Shae should have done instead? She’s under the control of Cersei and Tywin, volun-told to testify against him, and clearly sees, as _everybody_ did at the time, that there is absolutely no way Tyrion will survive after the trial. Tyrion made it quite clear to her what would happen if his family found out about their relationship. Did you expect her to throw herself onto the bier? She uses the only means she has to find an answer to the question “what next?” just like every human being would do in the same situation. What alternative are you suggesting?!? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/406 "2014-05-09T20:08:53Z")
I think that is part of the point I tried to make. I don’t think there’s enough evidence to conclude that Shae was an opportunist or two-faced or whatever. As her situation is presented, I don’t see how–once Tyrion was arrested–she had any choice to do anything other than what she did. She even might have genuinely loved Tyrion. There’s just no way for us to know for sure either way. And I think that’s part if the point. We only get Tyrion’s point if view, so we only get to know what he thinks. He might be mistaken about some things. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/407 "2014-05-09T22:14:06Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > I would dearly love to hear you all tell us what you think Shae should have done instead? She’s under the control of Cersei and Tywin, volun-told to testify against him, and clearly sees, as _everybody_ did at the time, that there is absolutely no way Tyrion will survive after the trial. Tyrion made it quite clear to her what would happen if his family found out about their relationship. > > Did you expect her to throw herself onto the bier? She uses the only means she has to find an answer to the question “what next?” just like every human being would do in the same situation. > > What alternative are you suggesting?!? It’s entirely possible both that: (a) Shae had no realistic alternative AND (b) Tyrion, in a fairly messed up emotional state at that precise moment, STILL feels so betrayed that he kills her, even if he is able to soberly reason out a few weeks later that she really had no choice in the matter. In any case, I’d say I’m 95% confident that Tyrion will kill Shae in a manner fairly close to the book, although it wouldn’t shock me if the dialog at least attempts to assuage some of the feelings that many people in this thread seem to have about his mindset and her betrayal, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/408 "2014-05-09T22:38:46Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > It’s entirely possible both that: > > (a) Shae had no realistic alternative > > AND > > (b) Tyrion, in a fairly messed up emotional state at that precise moment, STILL feels so betrayed that he kills her, even if he is able to soberly reason out a few weeks later that she really had no choice in the matter. Exactly. It doesn’t require any “genuine guilt” on Shae’s part for it to happen. ---
**Author:** ![interface2x](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@interface2x](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/interface2x)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/409 "2014-05-09T23:23:13Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > And second, I’d be completely happy if Tyrion’s story line changes completely from the book, as I thought his character kind of went off the rails after he left Westeros. His whole story arc from there was just not that interesting. You mean you’re not anxiously awaiting hour after hour of Tyrion taking on challengers in Cyvasse? ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/410 "2014-05-10T01:17:41Z")
I said this in another thread, but the reason I despised Shae in the end wasn’t because she had betrayed Tyrion, exactly. She did so in order to save her own skin, and that’s an understandable motive. It was more the way that she did it. The way she testified at the trial - she played dumb and innocent while humiliating Tyrion in a way that was completely unnecessary. Did she enjoy doing that, or was she just playing it up for Cersei’s benefit? Either way. I wouldn’t call her evil, but she is definitely amoral. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/411 "2014-05-10T01:24:17Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Tyrion made it quite clear to her what would happen if his family found out about their relationship. She never took him seriously though. She mocked him for being afraid of his family at least once. I thought it was telling that in the book, Shae shows no sign of distress on the stand. She doesn’t shoot Tyrion any guilty looks. She doesn’t have a mark on her. Cersei probably was able to convince her to betray Tyrion using just the carrot and never had to resort to the stick. Nevertheless, I do feel a little sorry for Shae. Had she fallen in with a noble of a slightly lesser family, she probably could have lived a comfortable and relatively drama-free life as his mistress. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/412 "2014-05-10T03:39:10Z")
Remember that Tyrion had just had the big reveal from Jaime and was in a murderous frame of mind, seeking out Tywin. Then Shae calls him “my giant of Lannister” and sets him off. So he’s definitely not in his normal cooly rationale mindset. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/413 "2014-05-10T04:18:11Z")
I’m with those who think that, for dramatic purposes and to knock some of the glint off his quasi-halo, Tyrion has to kill Shae. It’s an important event in making him even more self-loathing and despairing down the road. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/414 "2014-05-10T04:43:55Z")
The thing is, I’m not exactly looking forward to two seasons of a self-loathing and despairing Tyrion Lannister on walkabout across the narrow sea. That storyline became very tedious. And while I think it was marginally out of character for Tyrion to kill Shae in the book (although perhaps understandable for the reasons you mentioned), in the TV show Shae is just portrayed too sympathetically. If she has to die, I hope it’s because Tywin follows through on his threat to kill her. That would not only keep the story line intact, it would give Tyrion a better reason to kill Tywin. I thought that whole section of the book was a little off, so I’d be happy if they changed it. Also, part of what set Tyrion off to kill Tywin was Jamie’s reveal that Tyrion’s ‘wife’ was a prostitute and the happiest part of his life was a lie orchestrated by Tywin to teach him a lesson. But that reveal would have very little impact on the TV show because Tyrion’s marriage has not been mentioned much, and not for several seasons as I recall. The audience would be like, “Huh? You’re killing him over what again?” ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/415 "2014-05-10T09:30:40Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The thing is, I’m not exactly looking forward to two seasons of a self-loathing and despairing Tyrion Lannister on walkabout across the narrow sea. That storyline became very tedious. > > And while I think it was marginally out of character for Tyrion to kill Shae in the book (although perhaps understandable for the reasons you mentioned), in the TV show Shae is just portrayed too sympathetically. If she has to die, I hope it’s because Tywin follows through on his threat to kill her. That would not only keep the story line intact, it would give Tyrion a better reason to kill Tywin. I thought that whole section of the book was a little off, so I’d be happy if they changed it. > > **Also, part of what set Tyrion off to kill Tywin was Jamie’s reveal that Tyrion’s ‘wife’ was a prostitute and the happiest part of his life was a lie orchestrated by Tywin to teach him a lesson.** But that reveal would have very little impact on the TV show because Tyrion’s marriage has not been mentioned much, and not for several seasons as I recall. The audience would be like, “Huh? You’re killing him over what again?” You’re remembering it a bit wrong. After several happy weeks married to Tysha, Tyrion was told by Tywin that she was a whore and that it was all set up by Jaime to give Tyrion his first sexual experience, and then she was gang-raped by the Lannister soldiers with Tyrion as the last. What set off the whole chain of events that led to Tywin and Shae’s murders was that Jaime finally revealed the truth to Tyrion: Tysha was no whore, she was an innocent girl who had genuinely loved him. I have to say that I don’t know how they’re going to handle Tyrion and Shae in the show. There is no chain of office to be twisted around Shae’s neck. Show-Shae is clearly into Tyrion, and while I fully expect to see her testify against him at the trial, as it stands now I think he would understand it as coming from her being pressured by Cersei with a side of hurt feeling from the way he spurned her. Even if he finds her in Tywin’s bed, I can’t see him feeling so betrayed that he strangles her. Either they are going in a totally different direction – which I think would be a shame, as that was one of the most shocking scenes in a saga rife with shocking moments – or they’re going to find a way of making Show-Shae’s betrayal fit the characterization and plot of the show. In either case, I think the writers deserve a hand for keeping even book readers guessing as to where this plot line is heading. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/416 "2014-05-10T12:40:34Z")
Waaaay back in the OP I wondered what the show was going to do with what was coming up next in the books, which is mostly a long, boring slog through GET TO THE FUCKING POINT ALREADY! Is it three damned chapters of Tyrion in a cast, eating well, telling jokes to Illyrio before he even got on the damned boat with yet another pretender to the throne? And then that fucking forever boat ride. How many chapters does he devote to people who just get roasted? Why? The show seems to be handling this by kind of jumping right into the middle of this early and sorting out what’s gonna be important by the end. At least I hope that’s what’s happening. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/417 "2014-05-10T16:24:47Z")
AFFC and ADWD are going to see drastic cuts. I’m not sure why people think the show is going to follow all that bullshit in the books. Storm of Swords is by far the most action packed book in the series, and they’re making changes to it. Basically nothing happens in AFFC; the show is going to diverge. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/418 "2014-05-12T02:01:17Z")
All along I’ve said the betrayal in the courtroom would be enough to make Tyrion want to kill her. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/419 "2014-05-12T02:01:38Z")
I liked that episode quite a bit. The trial was very well done. The Asha stuff wasn’t, but not that big of a deal. Next episode is “only Cat?!” I’m not prepared for that! ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/420 "2014-05-12T02:03:35Z")
Shae’s going to die. Instead of being simply opportunistic like in the books, Shae is hurting Tyrion out of vengeance. Tyrion looked angry enough to kill someone this episode. Once he finds Shae with his father he’ll go overboard. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175.md?page=22)