# Game of Thrones Season 4: \[Fully And Openly Spoiled - See Sticky\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 2, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175 "2014-04-02T16:18:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/681 "2014-06-16T05:55:51Z")
No, there’s no way they cut her out. It’s too much of a good storyline (and not to mention, likely important because of where she sets up Jaime/Brienne at the end of ADWD). I think they’re just saving her as a Big Moment for early on in Season 5. One more thing that bugged me was the Stannis scene. The dialogue when he arrived and talked with Mance… ugh. The show writers don’t really seem to understand his character at all. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/682 "2014-06-16T07:54:26Z")
Wow, they managed to work it all in, and then some. And it didn’t even feel disjointed. That’s some good editing. I realized that after the events of this episode, the books for me dragged to a near standstill. Endless scenes of Tyrion on walkabout across the sea, more political stuff with Daeneris, all the charges and countercharges against people in King’s Landing and long descriptions of the formation of a bureaucracy and palace intrigue, the sand snakes in Dorn and all that stuff that didn’t really go anywhere…Arya’s storyline was reasonably interesting but didn’t move the plot along. For me, the wheels largely came off at this point. So I’m hoping the diversions from the books will tighten up the storytelling and move the plot along a little quicker. Maybe we’ll even start seeing events past the last book. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/683 "2014-06-16T11:04:50Z")
One very large and disturbing (to me) difference from the book is what is happening between Jaime and Cersei. By this time in the books, Cersei has rejected Jaime-- mostly because he wasn’t perfect anymore-- and Jaime pines. She doesn’t tell her father she loves Jaime and all those kids are his. It was Tyrion’s angry outburst “she’s been fucking Meryn Trant, Lancel and Moonboy too for all I know” that stopped Jaime’s pining and set him off to, um, The Riverlands? Whereever the Freys and Boltons are running wild. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/684 "2014-06-16T13:43:07Z")
> **[Dotdash Meredith - America's Largest Digital & Print Publisher](https://www.dotdashmeredith.com)** > > Dotdash Meredith is America's largest digital and print publisher, with brands including PEOPLE, Better Homes & Gardens, Allrecipes, Investopedia, Verywell, and more! Learn about career opportunities, our leadership team, and how we can help you... That’s a Q&A with Martin about the finale. He clarifies Shae’s motives in the book, which were not quote explicitly clear to me – > [@](#): > > This is almost contradictory, but with the Shae in the TV series, you can tell she actually has real feelings for Tyrion — she challenges him, she defies him. The Shae in the books is a manipulative camp-follower prostitute who doesn’t give a s–t about Tyrion any more than she would any other john, but she’s very compliant, like a little teenage sex kitten, feeding all his fantasies; she’s really just in it for the money and the status. She’s everything lord Tywin thought Tyrion’s first wife was that she actually wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/685 "2014-06-16T14:03:22Z")
It looked to me that Meera gave Jojen the _coup de grace_ before she fled. Did it look like that to anyone else? ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/686 "2014-06-16T14:08:39Z")
Ironically, last night’s show offered a bit of spoiler for book readers: Jojen’s getting killed pretty much guarantees that he’ll either have nothing important to do in the future, or just be gone/dead soon. I wonder why they’d kill him in the show. Just to raise the stakes, remind the viewers that no one is safe? Or could it be as simple as not wanting to have to pay an actor to play a character for whom they don’t really have anything to do in the future. I was actually kind of glad that they changed Tyrion and Jaime’s parting. It’s just such a bummer that two of the most likable characters part on such bad terms, to say nothing of Tyrion’s leaving with a false confession hanging over his head. Am I misremembering, or was Shae’s reaction to Tyrion different in the books? I seem to recall that she tried to make nice with him, but that Tyrion of course was having none of that shit and just strangled her without provocation. If that’s the case, I rather think that’s preferable to the way the show handled it. Disappointed that we didn’t get to see The Mountain screaming in agony: I think that would have been somewhat cathartic for viewers after what happened two weeks ago. Finally, I’m fairly shocked there was no Lady Stoneheart, just because (A) it was in the books, and (B) it makes such an obviously great capper for the season. What were they thinking? ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/687 "2014-06-16T14:09:44Z")
> [@JeffB](#): > > It looked to me that Meera gave Jojen the _coup de grace_ before she fled. Did it look like that to anyone else? Yep. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/688 "2014-06-16T14:16:36Z")
> [@JeffB](#): > > It looked to me that Meera gave Jojen the _coup de grace_ before she fled. Did it look like that to anyone else? She obviously did, and then the magic child threw a fireball at him right as he turned. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/689 "2014-06-16T14:21:51Z")
I was a little disappointed with this season. Don’t get me wrong, I still enjoyed it and it was still better than the vast majority of television, but I think they could have handled things a little differently. Mance Rayder needed more screen time. Seriously, is Ciaran Hinds sick or something? Why can he only be in 5 minutes per season? Cut the scenes where Gilly goes to Mole’s Town just to turn around and come right back and give Mance an extra scene. He’s an interesting and underused character. Trim the stuff with the mutineers at Craster’s crib and give Stannis freaking 45 seconds to explain his actions. I’m really hoping next season we get Stannis’s line: “_Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all i could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne._” That’s the noblest sentiment expressed by anyone trying to be King of Westeros. The Jojen killing skeletons looked corny. It would have been more threatening if they just used men in zombie make up. I’m also disappointed that they decided to commission another version of **The Rains of Castamere** instead of doing a new song. I would have loved to hear **Last of the Giants**. Cut the Beetle Monologue and replace it with Tyrion learning the truth about Tysha or, if you want to do a change from the books, show us how Shae ended up with Tywin. To end on a positive note, they did do a lot right this season. Oberyn and Bronn’s speeches to Tyrion about why they will and won’t be his champion respectively were perfectly adapted. And I loved everything to do with Littlefinger and Sansa as much as I loved their scenes in the books. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/690 "2014-06-16T14:24:42Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I realized that after the events of this episode, the books for me dragged to a near standstill. Endless scenes of Tyrion on walkabout across the sea, more political stuff with Daeneris, all the charges and countercharges against people in King’s Landing and long descriptions of the formation of a bureaucracy and palace intrigue, the sand snakes in Dorn and all that stuff that didn’t really go anywhere…Arya’s storyline was reasonably interesting but didn’t move the plot along. For me, the wheels largely came off at this point. Exactly my thoughts. I can’t think of a single scene (or perhaps even plot line) that truly engaged me that they haven’t already shown on screen. Maybe the show runners (with GRRM’s input) can compress what’s left into something better, but tons of Essos politics, perhaps pointless Young Griff, even more pointless Quentyn Martell, Tyrion’s wanderings… none of it is really compelling TV IMO. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/691 "2014-06-16T14:30:19Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > [Dotdash Meredith - America's Largest Digital & Print Publisher](http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-finale-martin/) > > That’s a Q&A with Martin about the finale. He clarifies Shae’s motives in the book, which were not quote explicitly clear to me – > > > [@](#): > > > > This is almost contradictory, but with the Shae in the TV series, you can tell she actually has real feelings for Tyrion — she challenges him, she defies him. The Shae in the books is a manipulative camp-follower prostitute who doesn’t give a s–t about Tyrion any more than she would any other john, but she’s very compliant, like a little teenage sex kitten, feeding all his fantasies; she’s really just in it for the money and the status. She’s everything lord Tywin thought Tyrion’s first wife was that she actually wasn’t. Interesting. See, this all goes back to what I was talking about in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17286039&postcount=119), when Tyrion and Shae had that huge fight, invented for the show, when he calls her a whore and sends her away. In the show, they need for Shae to actually be likable, which means she has to actually love Tyrion, which means that she can’t betray him so ruthlessly as in the books and therefore he must hurt her very badly first to give her some justification. And then that bleeds into last night’s episode: because Shae’s betrayal wasn’t clearly heartless and mercenary, you can’t have Tyrion just straight-up murder her without provocation as in the books, so Shae has to grab a knife first in order to make the scene work, which is kinda shitty compared to the way it played out in the books. Funny how changes in adaptation tend to snowball out of necessity. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/692 "2014-06-16T14:37:55Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > Trim the stuff with the mutineers at Craster’s crib and give Stannis freaking 45 seconds to explain his actions. I’m really hoping next season we get Stannis’s line: “_Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all i could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne._” That’s the noblest sentiment expressed by anyone trying to be King of Westeros. Unfortunately it appears the show is trying to make Stannis into a villain. Makes me wonder if he ends up doing something horrible before the end, which the showrunners know from talking with Martin about how it all ends and they are coloring the character at this stage of the game with that information… ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/693 "2014-06-16T14:43:55Z")
> [@JeffB](#): > > It looked to me that Meera gave Jojen the _coup de grace_ before she fled. Did it look like that to anyone else? I thought she was cutting his head off so he couldn’t be made into a wight. But then the Forest Child sent one of those nifty napalm grenades his way. Am I correct in understanding that the sea captain can use that coin to purchase any man’s death from the faceless men? Did I read that or did it just appear in my own head? I was very disappointed in blood raven’s appearance. I expected them to go full out on the roots through the face, etc. Coldhands was a bit of a mystery I was hoping they’d clear up for us. I always think of him as a wight made from Bran’s Uncle’s corpse that somehow warged back to his own body - or else got taken over by bloodraven. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/694 "2014-06-16T14:48:43Z")
Nobody’s gonna comment on the changed dynamic of Jamie and Cerseii’s relationship? I’m thinking the show is trying very hard to make Cersei not so much of a fucking bitch who uses men to get what she wants and discards them when they are no longer useful. So that when everyone abandons her the audience will feel sorry for her. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/695 "2014-06-16T15:20:21Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > Am I misremembering, or was Shae’s reaction to Tyrion different in the books? I seem to recall that she tried to make nice with him, but that Tyrion of course was having none of that shit and just strangled her without provocation. Not without provocation. Her attempt to use the “My Lion of Lannister” bit provoked him. > [@TruCelt](#): > > Am I correct in understanding that the sea captain can use that coin to purchase any man’s death from the faceless men? Did I read that or did it just appear in my own head? > > . I don’t recall any such thing. The coin is merely for passage to Braavos, so far as I know. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/696 "2014-06-16T15:28:45Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > . . . > > I don’t recall any such thing. The coin is merely for passage to Braavos, so far as I know. But why is a coin made of iron worth anything at all? Coinage in Westeros is worth the metal it’s made from, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/697 "2014-06-16T15:36:18Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > But why is a coin made of iron worth anything at all? Coinage in Westeros is worth the metal it’s made from, isn’t it? It doesn’t have any monetary value. It is worth passage to Braavos. If I remember correctly, it works only with Braavosi. The Faceless are very respected there. Also, they’ll kill you and you won’t even know you’re dead, so you take them home-- or else. ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/698 "2014-06-16T15:45:00Z")
> [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > What about no Mance-baby, Dalla and Val?! I was shocked they are cutting all that? Val and the baby drive quite a bit of the story at the wall from here on out. I thought about that too, but I bet it’ll just come out early next season. No need to cram it into an already packed finale. Just like the Reeds, or Olenna, or Shae’s necklace, or … other stuff I’m not remembering now… Dalla can pop up late just fine and none of the Unsullied will be any the wiser. It’s not such a stretch that in a camp of 100,000 wildlings, we didn’t see Mance’s wife and kid hiding among the other non-combatants. > [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > The Jojen killing skeletons looked corny. It would have been more threatening if they just used men in zombie make up. Wow, I couldn’t disagree more. I thought those were the be skeletons I’ve ever seen on film. Skeletons never, ever look right. Even when they look pretty good, they still move wrong, or just look fake. But these… wow… best CG from the whole series, I thought, even better than the dragons. (I actually thought the Brienne/Hound fight felt more fake than the skeleton fight. The choreography was kind of stage-y.) Now, that didn’t stop the fight from seeming like it belonged in a different series. But Bran’s story has always been more old-school hero’s journey fantasy than the rest. I thought the episode was great overall, though I grumbled about Lady Stoneheart too. The Tysha stuff was missed, but Tyrion’s escape still flowed just fine. Having Shae attack first was a great way to make sense of that scene given her portrayal in the show, without making Tyrion look like a stone-cold killer. Now, going forward, I agree… I have no idea what they’re going to do. I liked the next 2 books more than most, and if the next 2 seasons are just Cersei and Margaery scheming and snarking against each other, I’ll be just fine. But other than that, they’ve already pulled in most of the stuff from the books that would make for good TV. Arya’s storyline will be good, and the fake-Arya bit with Ramsay, Manderly, Reek, Frey pie, etc. will take up some time. Lady Stoneheart will be a cool reveal when it finally happens. But otherwise… Sam and Gilly on a boat. Tyrion on various boats. Bran under a tree. Dany playing The Bachelorette? Dorne? Ironborn? hoo boy… exciting TV there. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/699 "2014-06-16T15:50:32Z")
The coin isn’t currency exactly, it’s a mark that the bearer shows to prove herself. As for book-Jojen: He’s very likely already dead. No, really! If you re-read the Bran chapters when he’s with Bloodraven, Jojen just disappears. You stil see him interact with Meera and Hodor, but not Jojen. Just after the last Jojen appearance, in fact, Bran eats a thick, unpleasant gruel with veins of blood in it. I’m reasonably sure he actually unknowingly eats Jojen, presumably to gain his greensight. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/700 "2014-06-16T15:51:01Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > But why is a coin made of iron worth anything at all? Coinage in Westeros is worth the metal it’s made from, isn’t it? The coin is of the guild of assassins or whatever they’re called here (guild of faceless men?). That and the password (Valar morghulis) buys her passage because it’s the fookin’ Guild of Faceless Men! 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175.md?page=36)