# Game of Thrones Season 4: \[Fully And Openly Spoiled - See Sticky\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 2, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175 "2014-04-02T16:18:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/721 "2014-06-17T00:36:39Z")
The more I think about it, the more I’m disappointed in the finale and where the show is apparently heading. The show runners really don’t seem to “get” Stannis at all, and keep teetering on the edge of making him a downright villain. Despite my earlier thought that LSH must be saved for next season, I’ve read some interviews with the directors and now I’m very worried that she might just be cut entirely… which would be terrible. (I’m also a bit worried they might not go with the Hound = Gravedigger theory). I’m really not a fan of how they left Jaime in a completely different place with Tyrion and Cersei at the end of the episode. I understand changes need to be made for the medium’s sake, but they just flat-out cut some of the best dialogue in the book for no reason. For every good change (the Brienne/Hound fight was great, and having Varys hang out with Tyrion instead of just disappearing for two books is a good idea) it seems like there’s two bad changes. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/722 "2014-06-17T02:33:02Z")
Sis we ever see the Hound’s dog helmet in the series? In the books it becomes important after Arya leaves him. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/723 "2014-06-17T02:36:58Z")
Please tell me that Lady Stoneheart is planned to occur on this show. They aren’t skipping it entirely, are they? ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/724 "2014-06-17T02:45:08Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Sis we ever see the Hound’s dog helmet in the series? In the books it becomes important after Arya leaves him. We did see it early on, but not for a while: [Imgur: The magic of the Internet](http://i.imgur.com/Kb0nD.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/725 "2014-06-17T03:38:43Z")
The Unsullied seem remarkably unphased by Tyrion murdering Shae. I suppose in the show it’s much more of a non-premeditated crime of passion as opposed to the books where it comes across a bit more like a cold blooded execution of a former employee who sought new work. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/726 "2014-06-17T03:51:10Z")
Despite the lack of Lady Stoneheart - I, too, was eagerly awaiting her appearance - they ended the season with a bang. Great battle between Brienne and the Hound. Some nailbiting moments as Bran & Co. try to evade the skeleton squad. Glad to see a warm parting between Tyrion and Jaime. Interesting hint that Varys will be taking ship with Tyrion. > [@DigitalC](#): > > She obviously did [slit Jojen’s throat], and then the magic child threw a fireball at him right as he turned. I saw the reflection of the fireball in his eyes, but didn’t realize he was turning ice-zombie even then. Hmm. Interesting. > [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > …give Stannis freaking 45 seconds to explain his actions. I’m really hoping next season we get Stannis’s line: “_Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all i could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne._” That’s the noblest sentiment expressed by anyone trying to be King of Westeros… Quite so. Thanks for posting that. > [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Unfortunately it appears the show is trying to make Stannis into a villain. Makes me wonder if he ends up doing something horrible before the end, which the showrunners know from talking with Martin about how it all ends and they are coloring the character at this stage of the game with that information… Could be, but Stannis’s character has shades of gray just like many others’ in GOT. Even in the books he can be pretty villainous. He’s a religious zealot who cheats on his wife with a witch and has no problem burning people to death if they don’t buy into his church. He’s stiff and self-righteous, judgmental and humorless. That said, he’s generally (otherwise) an honorable guy, is implacably determined, is a skilled warrior (as Ned Stark noted), and has the best lawful claim to the Iron Throne of anyone in Westeros. And anyone who inspires Ser Davos Seaworth’s loyalty can’t be _all_ bad, right? ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/727 "2014-06-17T05:31:44Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Sis we ever see the Hound’s dog helmet in the series? In the books it becomes important after Arya leaves him. Is it that important? Sure, Brienne meets up with Rorge wearing his helmet, but that’s not really something I’d call important. Even if it is an awesome helmet and would make for a great “but you’re dead!” moment. Since it’s been so long since he’s been seeing wearing it, they could say Rorge found it in the Riverlands (or King’s Landing) or something. > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Could be, but Stannis’s character has shades of gray just like many others’ in GOT. Even in the books he can be pretty villainous. He’s a religious zealot who cheats on his wife with a witch and has no problem burning people to death if they don’t buy into his church. He’s stiff and self-righteous, judgmental and humorless. That said, he’s generally (otherwise) an honorable guy, is implacably determined, is a skilled warrior (as Ned Stark noted), and has the best lawful claim to the Iron Throne of anyone in Westeros. And anyone who inspires Ser Davos Seaworth’s loyalty can’t be _all_ bad, right? I always got the sense in the books that he didn’t buy into the religion much, just that he saw it as a means to an end. At most, maybe he bought into the Azor Ahai thing as a “well, if you say its me, its me, lets get this over with.” But he always seemed to respect Melisandre for her powers without buying into her entire religion. His wife is the True Believer, not him. And as for the “cheating on his wife thing”… in the books, there’s no implication that it was done for anything except to create shadow baby assassins. Is it really cheating when there’s no emotion to the deed and he’s basically just serving as a sperm donor? Heck, given how much of a zealot Selyse was in the book, she probably was completely fine with it. (Just one of the ways I think the show runners have dropped the ball with Stannis - they make it look like Melisandre seduced him, and for the promise of a son!) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/728 "2014-06-17T11:31:56Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > I agree that the show is making Stannis into a completely unlikeable character, which is odd because they seem to be trying to do the opposite with Cersei (who was utterly unlikeable in the books). It’s really annoying because the whole point to Stannis is that he is hard but just. The scene in which he ended up sparing Davos was particularly aggravating because on the show he only spares him because Melisandre tells him to. In the book, Davos is spared because he finally reminds the king of what his duty to the realm is. On the show, Ser Onion’s fierce loyalty to Stannis just seems misplaced. In the books (from what I remember), Stannis wasn’t particularly likable at all until he came to the wall. So he shouldn’t have been likable in the show until then, and he wasn’t. And in the last episode, in saving the Night’s Watch, calling Jon Snow’s father an ‘honorable man’, and taking Snow’s advice on Mance and burning the bodies, he was shown in a pretty positive light. I think, so far, with some relatively minor deviations, they’re pretty true to the books on Stannis (the Mannis). ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/729 "2014-06-17T11:44:10Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Despite the lack of Lady Stoneheart - I, too, was eagerly awaiting her appearance - they ended the season with a bang. Great battle between Brienne and the Hound. Some nailbiting moments as Bran & Co. try to evade the skeleton squad. Glad to see a warm parting between Tyrion and Jaime. Interesting hint that Varys will be taking ship with Tyrion. > I saw the reflection of the fireball in his eyes, but didn’t realize he was turning ice-zombie even then. Hmm. Interesting. > Quite so. Thanks for posting that. > Could be, but Stannis’s character has shades of gray just like many others’ in GOT. Even in the books he can be pretty villainous. He’s a religious zealot who cheats on his wife with a witch and has no problem burning people to death if they don’t buy into his church. He’s stiff and self-righteous, judgmental and humorless. That said, he’s generally (otherwise) an honorable guy, is implacably determined, is a skilled warrior (as Ned Stark noted), and has the best lawful claim to the Iron Throne of anyone in Westeros. And anyone who inspires Ser Davos Seaworth’s loyalty can’t be _all_ bad, right? How is his claim particularly ‘lawful’? He inherits the throne from his brother …who took it by force. At the very least, wouldn’t Daenerys have an equally strong legal claim? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/730 "2014-06-17T11:57:45Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > How is his claim particularly ‘lawful’? He inherits the throne from his brother …who took it by force. At the very least, wouldn’t Daenerys have an equally strong legal claim? I think “claim”, in this sense, is less about the law and more about the perception of the populace and (especially) the landed gentry. For example, Stannis wants to legitimize Jon Snow and make him Jon Stark, because he rightfully suspects that many houses currently following the Boltons would gladly jump at the chance to follow a Stark again, considering the high regard in which most of the North holds the Starks. It’s not so much about the law as it is the affection for the Starks and the dislike of the Boltons. Daenerys has a claim if, were she to land on Westeros, Lords and knights will flock to serve her. Having three grown dragons make her claim much stronger – not in a legal sense, but because Westerosi Lords know the history of the last time someone landed in Westeros with dragons, and they will be eager to not be burned. Stannis’s claim might be stronger if everyone knew Tommen was a bastard, but if the Lords still think he’s too weak to take the throne, they’ll likely stick with the family that seems to have the most power. Like Varys says, power is about perception – whoever is perceived to have the most power by the people and the Lords actually has the most power. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Just\_Ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Ed)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/731 "2014-06-17T12:00:14Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > How is his claim particularly ‘lawful’? He inherits the throne from his brother …who took it by force. At the very least, wouldn’t Daenerys have an equally strong legal claim? Don’t forget the Targaryens also took the throne (well, _made_ the throne itself, actually) by force. And if you want to say the Targaryens are the rightful rulers, then Aegon is actually the legitimate heir. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/732 "2014-06-17T12:29:56Z")
> [@Just\_Ed](#): > > Don’t forget the Targaryens also took the throne (well, _made_ the throne itself, actually) by force. And if you want to say the Targaryens are the rightful rulers, then Aegon is actually the legitimate heir. If Aegon is really Aegon. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/733 "2014-06-17T14:42:16Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > How is his claim particularly ‘lawful’? He inherits the throne from his brother …who took it by force. At the very least, wouldn’t Daenerys have an equally strong legal claim? Hence my phrasing, “has the best lawful claim to the Iron Throne of anyone _in Westeros_.” ---
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/734 "2014-06-17T15:36:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In the books (from what I remember), Stannis wasn’t particularly likable at all until he came to the wall. So he shouldn’t have been likable in the show until then, and he wasn’t. And in the last episode, in saving the Night’s Watch, calling Jon Snow’s father an ‘honorable man’, and taking Snow’s advice on Mance and burning the bodies, he was shown in a pretty positive light. > > I think, so far, with some relatively minor deviations, they’re pretty true to the books on Stannis (the Mannis). This was what my perception is too. Was going to post it, but **iiandyiiii** said it better than I would have. ---
**Author:** ![chinchalinchin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b9bd4f/32.png) [@chinchalinchin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chinchalinchin)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/735 "2014-06-17T16:00:33Z")
> [@magnusblitz](#): > > And as for the “cheating on his wife thing”… in the books, there’s no implication that it was done for anything except to create shadow baby assassins. Is it really cheating when there’s no emotion to the deed and he’s basically just serving as a sperm donor? Heck, given how much of a zealot Selyse was in the book, she probably was completely fine with it. (Just one of the ways I think the show runners have dropped the ball with Stannis - they make it look like Melisandre seduced him, and for the promise of a son!) I’m not sure. In the books, I always got the impression Stannis married out of duty and found in Melisandre his true wife. The book makes a point of how ugly Selyse is and how much Stannis disdains her, perhaps because she never gave him a son, which was her duty to him. And there’s always talk among camp followers and people at the wall how the Red Woman keeps his counsel. Stannis seems to have a grudging respect for her power too; he compares her to a hawk, as I recall, when relating a story to Davos about how the old bird he used to hunt with a piece of garbage, much like the Seven, so why not try a real hawk, like the Red God. Plus, in the books, Stannis seems to have no idea how Renly died, or at least washed his hands of it. He tells Davos he had a nightmare the night Renly died and awoke startled. He plainly claims in one chapter he had no hand in Renly’s murder. It seemed to me Melisandre gave no indication to him what the result of their, ahem, relations would be. All signs point to the fact Stannis was seduced, most likely by her renowned beauty. Anyway, that’s how I always interpreted. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/736 "2014-06-17T17:37:37Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > How is his claim particularly ‘lawful’? He inherits the throne from his brother …who took it by force. At the very least, wouldn’t Daenerys have an equally strong legal claim? > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Hence my phrasing, “has the best lawful claim to the Iron Throne of anyone _in Westeros_.” Indeed, and also, after Dany and Aegon, the Lord who is next in line for the throne is… Stannis (Robert, Stannis, and Renly are great grandsons of Aegon V Targaryen, as Aegon’s daughter married the Baratheon Lord at the time) ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/737 "2014-06-17T18:00:08Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Indeed, and also, after Dany and Aegon, the Lord who is next in line for the throne is… Stannis (Robert, Stannis, and Renly are great grandsons of Aegon V Targaryen, as Aegon’s daughter married the Baratheon Lord at the time) I hadn’t realized that. So he could actually unite the existing claims to the throne. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/738 "2014-06-17T18:00:31Z")
I recall someone on twitter asked Carice van Houten if Stannis and Melisandre were banging in the books, and Carice replied with a quote from one of Melisandre’s Dance with Dragons POV chapters in which Melisandre (who doesn’t require sleep) notes that her bed gets little use now that Stannis has left. So yeah in the books Stannis is regularly sleeping with Melisandre. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/739 "2014-06-17T21:24:41Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > I hadn’t realized that. So he could actually unite the existing claims to the throne. Thanks! It’s already united. Joffrey/Tommen’s crown is based on the same claim. After Robert’s armies killed off all the Targaryens, Robert was next in line for the throne. He won the throne through conquest, but also became the heir. If you believe Robert’s children are legit, then Tommen is king. If not, Stannis is. Both come from great-great-grandma-Targaryen. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/740 "2014-06-17T21:34:51Z")
Grandma Targaryen. Though I think he was saying that perhaps Stannis could unite the claims by working something out with Dany (those different existing claims… not Tommen’s :D). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175.md?page=38)