# Game of Thrones Season 4: \[Fully And Openly Spoiled - See Sticky\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 2, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175 "2014-04-02T16:18:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/121 "2014-04-14T06:24:00Z")
Were Ramsay’s lady friend and victim the prostitutes from Theon’s emasculation scene? ---
**Author:** ![Reverse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@Reverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reverse)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/122 "2014-04-14T06:42:23Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > For all the supposed in-universe expense, this episode felt cheap. That lion head… when did Westeros get fiberglass sculptures? The reception should have been filmed in the throne room. > > While I did like the five dwarf kings and the offense to the Martells, it’s clear the Penny character has been written out of the show. Every time this happens, it’s an indictment of Martin’s sprawl, and an assurance that he’s pissing away our time on tertiary characters. Penny hasn’t been written out of the show. The Stark dwarf’s face was scarcely seen, and even if she wasn’t one of the jousters doesn’t mean she isn’t the sister of one. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/123 "2014-04-14T11:36:48Z")
I just did not feel the increasing sense of menace from Joffrey that I felt when reading that scene in the book. Don’t know why. And there was some emotional component missing from the scene in which he hacked Tyrion’s gift book with his sword. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/124 "2014-04-14T13:02:01Z")
And yes some of that could be because I knew what was coming. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/125 "2014-04-14T13:10:12Z")
Yeah, they needlessly eliminated some very memorable lines from the book like: “I am no stranger to Valyrian steel.” “It appears you owe me a better present, Uncle.” And the tone of Tyrion’s and Joffrey’s exchange during the humiliation scene was off. In the book, Tyrion was obviously mocking Joffrey with obvious sarcasm and Joffrey got angrier and more out of control. In the show, Tyrion’s mockery was very subtle while Joffrey was more quietly menacing and restrained. I was looking forward to over-the-top-maniacally-evil-and-stupid Joffrey. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/126 "2014-04-14T13:17:36Z")
> [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > Yeah, they needlessly eliminated some very memorable lines from the book like: > > “I am no stranger to Valyrian steel.” > > “It appears you owe me a better present, Uncle.” > > And the tone of Tyrion’s and Joffrey’s exchange during the humiliation scene was off. In the book, Tyrion was obviously mocking Joffrey with obvious sarcasm and Joffrey got angrier and more out of control. In the show, Tyrion’s mockery was very subtle while Joffrey was more quietly menacing and restrained. I was looking forward to over-the-top-maniacally-evil-and-stupid Joffrey. Show-Joffrey is older (and presumably a bit more restrained) than book Joffrey, so I thought it fit pretty well. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/127 "2014-04-14T15:04:13Z")
Now that the King is dead, who is the new King? Is it Joff’s younger brother? And if so, does that mean we have Cersei the Queen Regent again? ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/128 "2014-04-14T15:43:06Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > Now that the King is dead, who is the new King? > > Is it Joff’s younger brother? And if so, does that mean we have Cersei the Queen Regent again? Yeah, it is the little kid. Full spoiler question: Who actually poisoned Joffrey? ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/129 "2014-04-14T15:52:57Z")
If I recall correctly, it was a conspiracy of Littlefinger, Dontos, Olenna, and Margaery, using Sansa as an unwitting mule/patsy. I don’t think it was ever explicitly stated how it was accomplished in detail, but my sense was they were OK with casting suspicion on Sansa, but fond enough of her to make her escape part of the plan. On the other hand, Dontos knew about the plan, but was killed by Petyr to tie up a possible loose end, once he’d served his purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/130 "2014-04-14T16:03:42Z")
It wasn’t just fondness that caused them to facilitate Sansa’s escape - getting her under his control was Littlefinger’s primary motive for the whole thing. He has big plans for her. Oleanna and Margery, on the other hand, probably are legitimately fond of her. But their main goal was to get Margery out of the marriage to Joffrey and married to Tommen instead. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/131 "2014-04-14T16:36:22Z")
This is just my opinion, but I think the people with the stongest motive for killing Joffrey would have been Margery and her grandmother. Can you imagine if you were either one of them how you would feel about Margery marrying that monster? Other people who may have motives include: . Cersei (given that she is kind of nuts and not very clever - but clever enough to know that Joffrey would make a terrible King and mess things up for her quite badly) . The prince from Dorr(sp?) … I have heard him say many times “the Lannisters are not the only ones who pay their debts” (most of the time he repeats that is in the HBO previews). He has said that if the Mountain killed his sister, then it was Tywin who gave the order. So … it seems many people from Dorr feel the Lanisters were responsible for raping and killing his sister(s). . I can see many other people may have a motive (including LittleFinger, the large bald Eunich Lord and others) . Many people who want to avenge the Starks. The only person who does not seem to have any motive at all is Tyrion - the one person who is actually accused. There are many people who have said (on message boards) that if you study the HBO footage, it is clear who did kill Joffrey and how they did it. I cannot see any evidence of who killed him, although it would be very interesting to hear some good theories. Personally, I would wager that most everyone in the story would be happy to see him dead. It’s a good lesson. If you behave like a real creep to lots of people, several of them may very well try to kill you. At the very least, many of them would like to see you dead. I understand that Cersei is close to being insane and does not require any real motive to hate people. But I would be very interested to know why she seems to hate Margery and disapproved of the wedding. Does anyone know? If not, does anyone have a good guess? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/132 "2014-04-14T16:50:04Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > The only person who does not seem to have any motive at all is Tyrion - the one person who is actually accused. > > There are many people who have said (on message boards) that if you study the HBO footage, it is clear who did kill Joffrey and how they did it. I cannot see any evidence of who killed him, although it would be very interesting to hear some good theories. Well, the fact that his new King was doing his best to humiliate him right then & there is a motive. There’s a missing gem on a necklace… ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/133 "2014-04-14T17:03:24Z")
> [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > Yeah, they needlessly eliminated some very memorable lines from the book like: > > “I am no stranger to Valyrian steel.” > > “It appears you owe me a better present, Uncle.” > > And the tone of Tyrion’s and Joffrey’s exchange during the humiliation scene was off. In the book, Tyrion was obviously mocking Joffrey with obvious sarcasm and Joffrey got angrier and more out of control. In the show, Tyrion’s mockery was very subtle while Joffrey was more quietly menacing and restrained. I was looking forward to over-the-top-maniacally-evil-and-stupid Joffrey. Also his public announcement that once his wife was pregnant he was going to visit Sansa to show his uncle how it’s done. And in the novel you learn the book is a relic as well, which Joffrey is too cretinous to appreciate on any level. I liked the substitution of Bronn for Ilyn Payne as Jaime’s fighting rehab guy. I’m sure it was for practical reasons since the actor playing Payne is sick, but since Bronn can talk it actually makes for much more interesting scenes. (I love that when all is said and done, the “Absolutely no pretense about it” mercenary Bronn is probably the most loyal friend Tyrion has.) ---
**Author:** ![Reverse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@Reverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reverse)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/134 "2014-04-14T22:06:40Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > There are many people who have said (on message boards) that if you study the HBO footage, it is clear who did kill Joffrey and how they did it. I cannot see any evidence of who killed him, although it would be very interesting to hear some good theories. It was Olenna Tyrell. The poison was provided by Littlefinger in Sansa’s necklace. ---
**Author:** ![interface2x](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@interface2x](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/interface2x)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/135 "2014-04-14T22:55:58Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > I understand that Cersei is close to being insane and does not require any real motive to hate people. But I would be very interested to know why she seems to hate Margery and disapproved of the wedding. Does anyone know? She sees Margaery as a power-hungry little bitch who will get in between Cersei and Joffrey. She wants to keep the power that she has as the Queen Regent and the influence that she has over Joffrey. By marrying Margaery into the family, the power and influence is kind of split between the Lannisters and the Tyrells. She’d prefer to keep the power in the family. Still, though, she didn’t kill Joffrey and her hatred of Margaery definitely didn’t die with him. ---
**Author:** ![interface2x](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@interface2x](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/interface2x)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/136 "2014-04-14T23:01:05Z")
Also, everyone is focusing on the cup and who had access to the cup. I honestly can’t remember exactly from the book - was it possible that Olenna just dropped the jewel into the wine carafe? Margaery knows not to drink that wine and she’s the only other one within reach of that particular carafe of wine. It would certainly be less suspicious if Olenna or Margaery were handling that than Joffrey’s cup. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/137 "2014-04-14T23:25:35Z")
If you believe Littlefinger, The Queen of Thrones did it and Sansa unwittingly carried the poison to the wedding. What reason would he have to make that shit up? ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/138 "2014-04-15T00:40:18Z")
I’m pretty sure it was the cup. The cup was a fancy gold one with the sigils of the great houses embedded on each side. It was a wedding present from Lord Tyrell. Poisoning a carafe would always be risky, but no one would dare drink out of such a cup other than the king or the queen. I like that this episode reminded us that Cersei is a massive bitch (with that whole “give the leftovers to the dogs” thing). ---
**Author:** ![Reverse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@Reverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reverse)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/139 "2014-04-15T00:46:13Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > I’m pretty sure it was the cup. The cup was a fancy gold one with the sigils of the great houses embedded on each side. It was a wedding present from Lord Tyrell. Poisoning a carafe would always be risky, but no one would dare drink out of such a cup other than the king or the queen. The poison was the crystals in Sansa’s necklace. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/140 "2014-04-15T00:47:55Z")
> [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > Yeah, they needlessly eliminated some very memorable lines from the book like: > > “I am no stranger to Valyrian steel.” > > “It appears you owe me a better present, Uncle.” > > And the tone of Tyrion’s and Joffrey’s exchange during the humiliation scene was off. In the book, Tyrion was obviously mocking Joffrey with obvious sarcasm and Joffrey got angrier and more out of control. In the show, Tyrion’s mockery was very subtle while Joffrey was more quietly menacing and restrained. I was looking forward to over-the-top-maniacally-evil-and-stupid Joffrey. I was hoping for Oleanna complaining that they had not heard “the rains of castamere” in about five minutes. Which would have been even more applicable to the show. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175.md?page=8)