# Game of Thrones Season 4: \[Fully And Openly Spoiled - See Sticky\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 2, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175 "2014-04-02T16:18:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Mogle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mogle/32/12021_2.png) [@Mogle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mogle)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/161 "2014-04-15T15:00:57Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > Autopsy? Really? > > I don’t doubt you. I don’t know enough about the level of the technology in the fantasy of that book. > > But it just seems to me that given the level of the technology in all other aspects, I would have thought the strength of their technology would just not be up to proving whether Joff was poisoned or not. > > Does anyone here know of any supporting evidence that would substantiate that he was poisoned? Could they really prove that? IIRC, they didn’t actually _prove_ it was poison, but the maester couldn’t find any foreign objects obstructing his airways, which eliminated choking on pigeon pie as the cause of death. And in the GoT universe there is a poison called “The Strangler” that will constrict the airways, choking you to death. The whole nose bleed thing is original to the show. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/162 "2014-04-15T15:58:59Z")
Can anyone explain why it was necessary to smuggle the poison in on Sansa’s necklace? What did that accomplish? It’s not like Lady Tyrell would have been frisked at the door, right? ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/163 "2014-04-15T16:03:14Z")
**Charles** , perhaps you shouldn’t be reading this thread. This thread is for people who have read the books and/or don’t mind being spoiled. There is another thread (two actually, one thread for each episode so far) for those who have not read the books. That also means that when someone says something like “Littlefinger did it” or “How cool would it be if Jaime killed Cersei”, they are probably working from prior knowledge. [This is the non-spoiler thread for the latest episode.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=720815) Also, a word of warning: DO NOT GET THESE MIXED UP! The Unsullied will have your head if you speculate using info you have gotten from this thread! ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/164 "2014-04-15T16:35:05Z")
… your head if you’re lucky. Just ask Varys. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/165 "2014-04-15T16:45:51Z")
I find myself mystified as to why so much time was spent on Margaery’s necklace. I didn’t even look until the second viewing, and it was certainly nothing spectacular, or even interesting. Nor do I recall that being in the books at all. What was the point of that? ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/166 "2014-04-15T16:52:06Z")
I think it was to get the television audience to fixate just a little on necklaces and to connect the Queen of Thornes with necklaces. Hint, hint. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/167 "2014-04-15T18:02:49Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Can anyone explain why it was necessary to smuggle the poison in on Sansa’s necklace? What did that accomplish? It’s not like Lady Tyrell would have been frisked at the door, right? Not so much to smuggle it in, but to point the finger at her later. The conspirators needed someone to be blamed for it, which is why they also immediately spirit her away so that she can never be questioned about the incident. The fact that Tyrion ended up getting blamed was not intended. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/168 "2014-04-15T19:01:56Z")
Here’s the most recent [If Game of Thrones happened on Facebook](If Game of Thrones happened on Facebook). I completely don’t get the joke about millions of book readers wishing that Tansy’s last words had been “Hoster”. Can anyone clue me in? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/169 "2014-04-15T19:07:33Z")
When Hoster Tully is dying and he’s all poppied-up and babbling, he keeps bringing up something about an unknown Tansy which hasn’t been explained. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/170 "2014-04-15T19:08:30Z")
Hoster Tully’s last word was “tansy,” which might have been a naturally occurring abortifacient to get rid of Lysa Tully and Petyr Baelish’s unborn bastard child. It is theorized that Hoster died regretting forcing her to abort and not allowing her to marry Littlefinger. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/171 "2014-04-15T19:12:27Z")
There are also a couple of women named “Tansy,” a red-haired innkeeper and an orphan girl. It is not indicated whether they have any connection to Hoster. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/172 "2014-04-15T20:03:32Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Can anyone explain why it was necessary to smuggle the poison in on Sansa’s necklace? What did that accomplish? It’s not like Lady Tyrell would have been frisked at the door, right? I think the elaborate setup to Joffrey’s assassination may well have had more to do with GRRM wanting to write about it in a stylistic manner suitable for the book than it did with protecting the identity of the assassin. I’m guessing that it could have been done in several simpler ways. For example, if the person who wanted Joffrey dead could make a deal with an assassin who was about to die shortly (for some unrelated reason), then that assassin could have killed Joffrey and a second assassin could have then immediately killed the first assassin - much like the way Hyman Roth was killed in Godfather II. The second assassin would likely never have even gotten into any trouble. They would have claimed they witnessed someone attempting to kill the King and so they shot the assassin in defense of the King. They would then be viewed as a hero and not as an assassin. Of course, if the nature of that society was such that they might have expected to be tortured into divulging the truth, it might have been best to have arranged for both of them to die so that the secret would never be revealed. Alternatively, only one assassin may have been needed if some other way was arranged for them to die. Perhaps some kind of painless poison? Remember how some of the prisoners suicided in the Nuremburg trials? ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/173 "2014-04-15T20:15:49Z")
Alternatively, it could have been done in an even simpler manner. To prevent the assassin from divulging any secrets, they could just be killed outright with no concern for the way they died. A less painful poison (such as cyanide) could be used. Cyanide was the poison used by Goering and Himmler at the end of WW2. If only one assassin was involved, then things would have been even simpler and the odds that the actual instigator would have been revealed would have been virtually zero. But the method used was not as important as ensuring the certainty of Joffrey’s death. ---
**Author:** ![MeanJoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanjoe/32/5693_2.png) [@MeanJoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanJoe)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/174 "2014-04-15T23:02:20Z")
Comments regarding posts in the non-spoiler thread. I’m putting it in a spoiler box just in case there are non-book readers who also read here. Yeah, yeah… “Fully and Openly Spoiled” but I don’t need the damn drama so just click the box! 😉 The Unsullied are going nutty with half-arsed theories on whodunit while loudly and proudly proclaiming that it simply doesn’t make sense for it to have been The Queen of Thornes. It is both infuriating and hysterical. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/175 "2014-04-15T23:24:25Z")
There was some discussion in the thread that did not allow spoilers about the following site. It contains some biographical info for all the characters in this story. > **[List of characters](http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/List_of_Characters)** > > This page lists all characters from the A Song of Ice and Fire series alphabetically according to the characters’ first names, regardless of if the character is better known by a nickname. For example: Sour Alyn is listed under "A" for Alyn and not... It also contains the correct spelling of the names. They are listed in alpha order with the first name first. It seems to be a problem to list the link to this site in the thread that does not allow spoilers. I hope that you may find this info to be valuable. ---
**Author:** ![interface2x](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@interface2x](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/interface2x)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/176 "2014-04-15T23:38:04Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > To prevent the assassin from divulging any secrets, they could just be killed outright with no concern for the way they died. A less painful poison (such as cyanide) could be used. The point of using this poison, and to use it at that particular time, is to make it look like Joffrey choked to death on the pigeon pie. They wanted him dead and they wanted it to look like he had a tragic accident. They didn’t want it to look like murder or encourage further investigation - like “how did a hated 15 year old king just drop dead with no previous symptoms?” In the book, it’s slightly less clear that it was the wine vs. the pie to the observers. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/177 "2014-04-16T00:35:33Z")
> [@interface2x](#): > > The point of using this poison, and to use it at that particular time, is to make it look like Joffrey choked to death on the pigeon pie. They wanted him dead and they wanted it to look like he had a tragic accident. A propos of nothing, pointless historical trivia just in case you figured GoT was overly hardcore : Louis X the Quarreller, eldest son of Philip the Fair died without an heir but with a pregnant (second) wife. It was opined that, legally speaking, if she bore a son then he’d be the rightful King of France but if it was a daughter the crown would pass on to Louis’ younger brother Philip. Meantime he was to steward the realm. Turned out to be a son, John the First. Who died five days later, after quite a few prominent nobles of the court had gotten the honour of carrying him as part of his baptism ceremony. So there’s more than a bit of speculation today that uncle dearest had the tyke poisoned or that a supporter of his could have done the deed of their own initiative, and for all we know there also was back then. But since sudden infant mortality was very much a thing that just happened in those days, since Philip the Fair had been publicly and infamously cursed to the thirteenth generation by the last Grandmaster of the Templars on his pyre, and since they didn’t exactly have state-of-the-art CSI departments either there were no official accusations or inquiries. And to this day, nobody knows for sure whether or not somebody helped John I become “the Posthumous”. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/178 "2014-04-16T00:43:34Z")
TV question and I think book question: Why on TV was Janos Slynt immediately given a seat on the NW “council”? Haven’t got that far book-wise, but I remember from past spoilage that he was pretty big as well. Sure, he was the top cop, but also there is a point made that (to wiki!) Waymar Royce (prologue wight) was given a leadership position due to his family’s history. And the Slynts weren’t a house until he was given Harrenhal for being a toadie. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/179 "2014-04-16T00:50:53Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > There was some discussion in the thread that did not allow spoilers about the following site. It contains some biographical info for all the characters in this story. > > [http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/List\_of\_Characters](http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/List_of_Characters) > > It also contains the correct spelling of the names. They are listed in alpha order with the first name first. You do realize that most of the people in this thread have read the books? I think it’s weird that so many fans are speculating that Cersei was behind the poisoning. It’s been pretty clear that she is the only one in Westeros that gives a shit about Joff. Some asshole friends on FB spoiled Tywin’s demise while talking about Joff’s wedding. My husband was so pissed. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175/180 "2014-04-16T13:46:38Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > TV question and I think book question: > > Why on TV was Janos Slynt immediately given a seat on the NW “council”? Haven’t got that far book-wise, but I remember from past spoilage that he was pretty big as well. Sure, he was the top cop, but also there is a point made that (to wiki!) Waymar Royce (prologue wight) was given a leadership position due to his family’s history. And the Slynts weren’t a house until he was given Harrenhal for being a toadie. Slynt didn’t come from noble birth, but since he had risen to gold cloaks commander, he was still granted more status in the NW, much like a knight sent to the wall for a “minor” crime, like rape. (apparently not as big a deal in Westeros) One of the themes of the series is that power is an illusion. Remember Varys’ riddle to Tyrion? Power exists wherever men believe it does. Janos Slynt arrived at the NW insisting he was better than others due to his past, the other high-ranking members of the NW believed him, therefore it’s true. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-4-fully-and-openly-spoiled-see-sticky/685175.md?page=10)