# Game of Thrones (season 5) BOOK SPOILERS!! TV SPOILERS! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 13, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539 "2015-04-13T02:13:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/321 "2015-05-19T04:49:40Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > In the books, Cersei schemes to get her own lovers and companions to falsely accuse Margaery of adultery/treason. The tables get turned on Cersei when her accomplices are tortured and they confess they have really been sleeping with Cersei, and she gets arrested and Margaery is released. IIRC she was released but not off the hook. Just “paid her bail,” but still has to go to trial. I got the impression that the High Sparrow doubts the charges though, but isn’t going to throw them out without some investigation. He may be a crazy fanatic, but he’s no fool. ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/322 "2015-05-19T08:26:11Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > In the books, Cersei schemes to get her own lovers and companions to falsely accuse Margaery of adultery/treason. The tables get turned on Cersei when her accomplices are tortured and they confess they have really been sleeping with Cersei, and she gets arrested and Margaery is released. If I recall, Lancel was barely involved though. It was one of the Kettleblacks who had been tortured and confessed. I can’t remember if Lancel admitted to sleeping with Cersei or getting Robert killed in the books, he is religious, but not sure of involvement. That seems to be much more on the table in the TV version… ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/323 "2015-05-19T13:51:48Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > If I recall, Lancel was barely involved though. It was one of the Kettleblacks who had been tortured and confessed. > > I can’t remember if Lancel admitted to sleeping with Cersei or getting Robert killed in the books, he is religious, but not sure of involvement. That seems to be much more on the table in the TV version… So, you’re saying that it could be Moonboy for all we know? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/324 "2015-05-19T16:28:24Z")
> [@magnusblitz](#): > > [Teenage Dornish Ninja Sand Snakes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VTkL62YnTA) This is dripping with Awesome. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/325 "2015-05-19T17:17:59Z")
> [@magnusblitz](#): > > Pretty much the only thing I’m glad they cut out is Brienne wandering the countryside looking for the girls. Have you & I been watching the same show? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/326 "2015-05-19T17:20:11Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > J > Really? I think the audience could figure out that Ramsey’s done something terrible to turn the once confident Theon into a wreck just fine without having to linger on torture scenes (and don’t forget the ridiculous Asha almost rescued him bit). . Yeah, there’s no need for HBO to turn GoT into torture porn. Anymore than they already have. Remember, the books rarely actually portray the torture, just hints at it. ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/327 "2015-05-19T17:24:38Z")
The first part of [this article](http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/ask-the-maester-sansas-horrific-wedding-the-bolton-stark-alliance-and-the-sand-snakes/) finally identifies why the Ramsay/Sansa rape scene felt so off to me. I’m not going to go as far as the link **Push You Down** provided, but I do agree that the scene felt bad because it was completely unnecessary and out of character - it happens only because Littlefinger is a moron. Apparently the show runners are saying that Show Ramsay isn’t well known for being a psycho like Book Ramsay is. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Have you & I been watching the same show? 😕 I suppose you could say generally she’s doing the same thing, but in the books we know that her quest never leads her anywhere (to the girls). In the show, she’s located Sansa, is following closely (heck, they actually interacted) and will likely interact with her again in later episodes. That’s a big difference. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/328 "2015-05-19T17:48:16Z")
> [@Fair\_Rarity](#): > > I We know Theon’s going to snap some day. We know Ramsey gives us Joffrey nostalgia. There was just no reason other than to do something shocking, and I’d really like for once the something shocking not involving gratuitous sexual violence. It’s not edgy at this point. It’s really fucking creepy. Wait a second. This show showed us incest and attempted murder of an innocent child in the first episode. It’s had dozens of murders, poisonings, shown people’s flayed bodies and shown the torture and castration of Theon / Reek in detail. All of those were ok with not much protest, yet showing rape is creepy and just for shock value? WTF? You are literally saying that showing rape is worse than showing torture and castration. All of the above things and worse happened in history and still happens during warfare today, go read about ISIS current techniques. In the books Jeyne Pool is raped, repeatedly, and TheMarySue and others seemed to have no problem with it. Yet somehow because it’s Sansa getting raped its unacceptable? So your problem is not that it showed a rape, its that the wrong person got raped? WTF? again. They showed Sansa’s face, then cut to Theon / Reeks reaction and just showed sound. You can’t say yet if this is necessary for the plot or not, because we don’t know yet the after math of it. We’ll find that out in the next few episodes. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/329 "2015-05-19T18:01:03Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Wait a second. This show showed us incest and attempted murder of an innocent child in the first episode. It’s had dozens of murders, poisonings, shown people’s flayed bodies and shown the torture and castration of Theon / Reek in detail. All of those were ok with not much protest, yet showing rape is creepy and just for shock value? WTF? > > You are literally saying that showing rape is worse than showing torture and castration. All of the above things and worse happened in history and still happens during warfare today, go read about ISIS current techniques. The argument, IIRC, is that, unlike murder and torture, rape is seen as “not a big deal” by too much of society, and this is just one of many steps “normalizing” it. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/330 "2015-05-19T18:04:44Z")
I agree, I wrote this on another forum: > [@](#): > > I don’t think the rape was a shocking stunt. It’s simply a logical necessity for the story. Women in that sort of world were sold/bartered/bargained to a husband, and they often weren’t happy with it. Marital rape isn’t even a concept they would have - once you’re wed, she’s yours. Littlefinger’s plan required Sansa be married to the Boltons, and being raped by Ramsey is a natural consequence of that. Unless they were going to re-arrange the story so that Stannis conquered Winterfell before the wedding night, I don’t see how you could avoid it. And they may have dramatic plans that would be invalidated if that were to happen. It may turn Sansa against Littlefinger, for example, if she blames him for putting her in that position. > > The rape wasn’t even bad, by Ramsey standards. This is a guy we’ve seen torture Theon constantly for years, hunt down ex-girlfriends for sport and watch dogs tear them apart, and flay men alive. The idea that this is the worst thing Ramsay has done is pretty absurd. And as far as that goes, the rape itself could’ve been far more graphic and brutal and tortorous if they were going for shock value. What we actually saw was fairly run of the mill marital rape, it was at the low end of what we could’ve expected from Ramsay. If anything, they softballed it. > > I’m also not convinced rape is the worst possible thing you can do to a person, and I’m a little perplexed as to why we act that way. A few years ago on The Walking Dead, the governor captured Glen and Maggie. Glen was beaten and tortured for days, just being completely physically broken by his captors. He was then left to die by being eaten alive while restrained, only barely managing to fight it off and escape. By crontrast, Maggie wasn’t even raped - all that happened was that the governor made her take her shirt off. But every character on the show acted as though Maggie had gone through the most horrible trauma imaginable, but Glenn, well, suck it up buddy, shit happens. And the audience reaction went the same way. “OMG poor Maggie!” - no one gave a shit about the vastly greater suffering by Glenn. > > I’m not sure I fully understand it. Maybe rape is somehow more real and personal to us? Sort of like how we can watch a movie where a thousand people are killed, but people can’t watch a movie where a single dog dies. > > In a medieval-like world, the powerful get to shit all over the non-powerful. Life sucks for anyone but the powerful few. Nobles can kill you, maim you, torture you, practically enslave you, force you to do anything you want for any reason. It’s awful. Why is it that everyone is okay with all of that untold suffering that we see, but a rather run of the mill marital rape makes people say “no way, that crosses the line! I’m done with this show!”? Edit: Woops, how did I end up in this thread? Must’ve clicked it off the CS page and went to the last post. Anyway, I probably won’t be here for any replies, since I’m generally not participating in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/331 "2015-05-19T18:06:47Z")
> [@magnusblitz](#): > > The first part of [this article](http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/ask-the-maester-sansas-horrific-wedding-the-bolton-stark-alliance-and-the-sand-snakes/) finally identifies why the Ramsay/Sansa rape scene felt so off to me. I’m not going to go as far as the link **Push You Down** provided, but I do agree that the scene felt bad because it was completely unnecessary and out of character - it happens only because Littlefinger is a moron. Apparently the show runners are saying that Show Ramsay isn’t well known for being a psycho like Book Ramsay is. I think that article makes two assumptions: (1) Littlefinger really truly cares about Sansa’s wellbeing (2) Littlefinger has a modern sensibility concerning marital rape (1) is questionable at best, and (2) is almost certainly flawed. From his perspective, she’s a nobleman’s daughter. What happens to nobleman’s daughters? They get married off to someone they don’t particularly like and start having babies. That’s the way life is. That’s what Sansa has presumably known was going to be her fate since she was born. Sure Ramsey is a fair bit worse than average, but Littlefinger also presumably thinks that it’s only going to be temporary, because either Stannis or the Knights of the Vale are going to defeat the Boltons soon. It’s also possible that Littlefinger knows a fair bit about Ramsey but assumes that the fact that Sansa is so incredibly valuable means that Roose (who is always prudent and careful) will ensure that Sansa is treated humanely enough that she’s not going to end up killing herself or anything of that sort. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/332 "2015-05-19T18:12:15Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I think that article makes two assumptions: > (1) Littlefinger really truly cares about Sansa’s wellbeing > (2) Littlefinger has a modern sensibility concerning marital rape > > (1) is questionable at best, and (2) is almost certainly flawed. From his perspective, she’s a nobleman’s daughter. What happens to nobleman’s daughters? They get married off to someone they don’t particularly like and start having babies. That’s the way life is. That’s what Sansa has presumably known was going to be her fate since she was born. Yes, and thus- why is this rape? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/333 "2015-05-19T18:20:11Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, and thus- why is this rape? 😕 Wait, are you saying that you don’t think that what we saw on the screen was rape? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/334 "2015-05-19T18:29:26Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Wait, are you saying that you don’t think that what we saw on the screen was rape? 1. Was it rape in a medieval society? 2. Why would you say it’s rape today? ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/335 "2015-05-19T18:29:33Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Wait, are you saying that you don’t think that what we saw on the screen was rape? It’s rape as defined by US laws since the 1970s and no doubt rape as it’s seen by the vast majority of western show watchers. It would not have been considered rape by people of Westorosi culture assuming their laws and morals were similar to the middle ages in europe. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/336 "2015-05-19T18:34:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > 1. Was it rape in a medieval society? Probably not, but how is this relevant? It wouldn’t have been rape in medieval society if Ramsey had punched her, tied her up, and penetrated her while holding a knife at her throat. Husbands effectively owned their wives. > [@](#): > > 1. Why would you say it’s rape today? Because Sansa did not give clear consent, and she was not in a position in which she could give consent – she is both underage and there is an implied threat of force if she doesn’t cooperate. Do you actually believe that wasn’t really rape? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/337 "2015-05-19T18:38:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > 1. Was it rape in a medieval society? Almost certainly not, although I’m sure the Reek-hanging-around-watching aspect of it would be frowned on by polite medieval society. > [@](#): > > 1. Why would you say it’s rape today? Absolutely. I’m not sure what point you’re making, however. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/338 "2015-05-19T18:47:11Z")
look it’s rape as we, the viewer, sees it, I think we all agree on that. The problem is, is it acceptable to use rape as a device for character and plot development given our modern sensibilities? I’m taking no position on that, but what I don’t understand is that in the books Reek being forced to watch Ramsey rape Jeyne Pool was clearly a necessary part of the plot to force Reek to take some action and to advance his plot. it’s hypocritical to think the books are acceptable but somehow think what the show does is unacceptable just because a different character gets raped. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/339 "2015-05-19T19:01:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Probably not, but how is this relevant? It wouldn’t have been rape in medieval society if Ramsey had punched her, tied her up, and penetrated her while holding a knife at her throat. Husbands effectively owned their wives. > > Because Sansa did not give clear consent, and she was not in a position in which she could give consent – she is both underage and there is an implied threat of force if she doesn’t cooperate. > > Do you actually believe that wasn’t really rape? Note that marital rape wasnt a crime until a few decades ago. Even so in the USA a person can get married as early as 16 (even earlier in some cases). If a 16yo gets legally married in the USA, you mean the husband will be raping her until she turns 18? 😕 And if it is rape, then Margaery raped Tommen. He’s only 9 years old in the books, and what- 13 in the TV series? Definitely underage. I am not saying it wasnt rape. I just am wondering why everyone agrees it’s rape. My point is- _in the context of the period-_ it wouldn’t be rape. Hell, in current morals & laws sex with those kept in forced bondage slaves and prostitutes would be rape. Why is no one getting irate over those sex scenes? Hell, just about every sex scene in the TV show is “rape”. Why is this one so different? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/340 "2015-05-19T19:10:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Note that marital rape wasnt a crime until a few decades ago. > > Even so in the USA a person can get married as early as 16 (even earlier in some cases). If a 16yo gets legally married in the USA, you mean the husband will be raping her until she turns 18? 😕 No idea what this has to do with the show. > [@](#): > > And if it is rape, then Margaery raped Tommen. He’s only 9 years old in the books, and what- 13 in the TV series? Definitely underage. Yes, very possibly. > [@](#): > > I am not saying it wasnt rape. I just am wondering why everyone agrees it’s rape. My point is- _in the context of the period-_ it wouldn’t be rape. That’s a point that no one challenges, and no one else seems to care about. What that period (the historical analogue) considered “rape” doesn’t matter to me with regards to what is actual rape. > [@](#): > > Hell, in current morals & laws sex with those kept in forced bondage slaves and prostitutes would be rape. Why is no one getting irate over those sex scenes? Probably because they didn’t involve a sympathetic major character (except for Dany in S1E1, and I recall a lot of complaints about that one). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539.md?page=18)